US bad, Norway worse - and better?
Posted August 13th, 2008 by Rakafanten
output
I have been visiting dailypaul.com for about 6 months now, and I must say I find the information here very useful. I am from Norway, and as I compare what you describe is going on in the US to our situation here up north, I see plenty of similarities. The increased surveillance, the police being given more and more authority, the economic turmoil, and freedoms we once took for granted are slowly fading away.
But interestingly enough, we still enjoy freedoms here in Norway that you Americans have lost over the last decade, despite the fact that government here is even more intrusive than yours. We pay higher taxes, we have social security and "medicare"-arrangements here that not many Americans think possible. Our government is a government that is all powerful. It has a virtual monopoly on schools, with almost every school, with only a few religious exceptions, in the country being public schools. All the hospitals are in the end run by the government bureaucrats, and about 40% of the stocks on the Oslo Stock Exchange are owned by the state. Even our biggest radio- and TV-stations, our dominating telecom operator, our biggest oil corporations and more are owned, with 51% control or more, by the government. But despite this, we still have habeas corpus, we still have free speech, we do not (yet) have inflation at critical level and we most certainly have less of the public "moral hygiene" that seems to be dominating American public life. Another thing worth mentioning about Norway is that we have at least eight different parties in our legislative branch contrary to the to-party-system (in reality one-party-system) that you have, but nevertheless we see the same kind of bipartisan agendas being pushed, contrary to what their fellow politicians even want, by the political elite.
Now, Norway is much different than the US in that it is a small state, with about 4,6 million inhabitants, and not a confederation of states with 300 million people. But still, can you imagine what I must feel like when I think about the future here, sharing your libertarian views? I see all the signs of what is happening in the US repeating themselves here, only with a few years lag.
What amazes me the most about the Ron Paul campaign is the passion that develops from the freedom message. And not even that, but the enthusiasm for self reliance and self responsibility is quite astonishing. I believe that the people, when left alone, are capable of taking care of the position the government here fills today in both the health sector, school sector and other vital sectors in our society.
Right now i haven't quite awaken yet to my local version of the American soft-tyranny. My focus is on the US, and for a good reason. You are the only remaining superpower (albeit a foolish one). But I believe that at some point there will be a similar awakening amongst the people here, if the past is any guidance in regards to US influence in this country.
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norge
jag älskar ju små söta noska sötisar.. ha ha
jag
älskar norge
go go norge all ni guttar o töser puss puss :)
sa nej till eu...... jiihaa
one thing is clear -if
one thing is clear -if your entire country is only 5 million people, with the right geography, and a little natural prosperity....you can run pretty much any form of government you want.....and it'll likely "appear" to succeed.
after all, people, in the end....will be far more pragmatic then any theoretical model.
we don't have that luxury in the united states. at 300 million people of somewhat diverse background, spread across a large territory, and a poor neighbor sharing thousands of miles of border....i see in our future ...increasing aspects of: authoritarianism, socialism, fascism, nationalism
one quick question
Has the Gardasil shot become a required vaccination and if so, is this enforced for exchange students? Tuk. (sorry if I misspelled, it's the only word I know)
Gardasil shot? Tuk?
You must be thinking of another country:)
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Norway still better than Sweden
Here is Sweden a new law that allows the swedish military to surveilance your calls and text messages WITHOUT the suspision of a crime have being commited. The new law will take affect in Jan 09 and was passed thrue the "riksdag" (Congress) with 138 no and 143 yes votes
Will Norway soon follow?
What Rondaman is talking about here is the most frightening sign of tyranny we have seen here in Scandinavia. It is important to fight this kind of government surveillance! Get people aware of the consequences before it is too late...
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Iceland probably will
Current econamic hardships in Iceland are making politicians push hard for us entering into the EU, We just had a housing market collapse and with that our currency got inflated massivly. a year ago 60kr would get $1, now it's 80kr to a $1 with the dollar slipping too, so we slipped even more.
Anyway, I currently live in the US so I'm not too worried about myself, but all my family is still there and they are feeling the effect of this crisis.
This isn't the 1st time they push EU membership on us, it has so far been beaten 2 times in public voting but now people there are starting to buy into the whole propoganda the media and politicians are pushing.
That is very likely how they
That is very likely how they will get us to submit to the amero and North American Union
heh
:)
they have to make you hate the dollar and hate your current state
US, Norway and other governments
I was born and raised in Norway but live in the US. My input on this topic which is geared towards the US but applies to most governments:
How to fix the US economy
Bureaucrats like to complicate things, I like them simple (which the former of course view as radical thinking).
1. Plan to drill for oil off shore (look to Norway for any environmental concerns)and start drilling asap (just look at oil prices after Bush said he wanted to get going on this!).
2. Plan new nuclear facilities
3. Enforce laws on the books that currently are being ignored such as:
a. Immigration
b. Naked short selling - this is a BIG one - this has been illegal since 1933 but still happens in massive volume every single day and is a huge burden on the stock market
4. Fix the tax-system, preferably eliminate income and corporate tax but at the very least change individual tax to a flat tax of no more than 15%
5. Change the mentality of government to find ways to earn money selling the public services they want or that someone is willing to pay for.
There once was a Swedish Business Leader who stated "when you sweep dirty stairs you start on top" and then he fired almost all his business leaders.
The US should be looked upon as the largest Corporation in the world and run as such focusing on profitability while at the same time taking care of both the employees and the stockholders (tax-payers). The thinking needs to change or this "Free" society will be outpaced by other continents and the "Empire" will indeed crumble.
Innovation is the mother of capitalism and as such needs to be sufficiently motivated and not, as today, be discouraged by red tape and bureaucracy. Intellectual property creates independence and that coupled with energy independence...now you got something.
maybe less attorneys and a few more entrepreneurs :-) would do the trick?
from my blog at http://heggenhougen.blogs...
www.wrapmail.com
Wrap It Up!
The govt should stay out of
The govt should stay out of regulating stock markets, and other markets, altogether. Some investors will feel uncomfortable trading in markets that allow naked shorts, and others won’t. Those exchanges wanting to attract the former, will make arrangements to ensure they don’t take place. Companies looking for funding will adjust where they list accordingly. No need to make it a federal political issue.
I disagree
That is like saying the referees should stay out of the football game.
The fact is that markets are a form of competition AND cooperation. Cooperation means that people agree to abide by certain rules.
In the case of naked shorts, there are some stocks in which over 100% of the outstanding shares of the company are sold short!!! This is a physical impossibility. There is a very real need for rules, and enforcement of those rules.
Like in a football game, there are some things that simply are not / should not be allowed as a matter of course. Football players, for example, don't bring knives onto the field. If they did, it might be easier for them to win. But then the other side might bring guns. Then, instead of a football game, we'd have a war.
A market requires that people - at a very basic level - cooperate by agreeing to certain rules. Ron Paul has said before that the government should act as a 'referee'
Government should not
Government should not mandate that there should be ONE stock market, with one set of rules, any more than they should be able to deny consenting adults the privilege of playing knife assisted football if they so choose.
Chances are, there are some people out there who are comfortable investing in a market where naked shorting is allowed, while others feel differently. Absent runaway government, markets would exist to serve both groups; no coercion required.
What government should ensure, is that voluntarily entered into contracts between market operators (i.e. NYSE), individual investors, and individual listing companies, are not violated. They should not coerce every potential market operator into using one specific contract.
Guess what?
You aren't a country anymore....you are an EU.
The Irish seem to have figured it out.
Now get your country back...secede...we need you.
No EU here!
No, Norway is not a part of the European Union. The people of Norway has voted no on EU memebership two times since the 70's.
All we have is a trade agreement with them, wich is just as bad, but not as hard to get out of. Actually; All laws made by the EU (in the sectors described in the EEC-agreement) automatically apply to us and get into our laws without going through the legislative process as described in our constitution.
So, although we are not in the EU, we have serious issues with our constitution not being followed.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Good!
Good!
______________________________________________________
Don't waste time with Obama, McCain, Nader or Barr - join the Campaign For Liberty! http://www.campaignforlib... The Constitution is more important than voting for the evil of 4 lessers.
Thank you for your input about your
country. We here in America so often don't know about how other countries are. We homeschool our children, and teach them about other countries (mom and dad learn along with them I should say), but I noticed that in our public schools, American History is taught over and over,(and that is faulty) and so little of history of the world, and other country's information. By the way, I was wondering if you have gun rights? Thanks again, and hello to all you in Norway.
Gun rights
Hello, and thanks for your comment. It is clear to the rest of the world that the people of the US for the most part seem to be terribly ignorant (or maybe uneducated) to what is going on in the world around them. Many Americans seem to think of the US as the center of the world, with everyting around being of less interest.
When it comes to gun rights, I do not have the full story. All I know is that there are lots of weapons here in Norway, and a lot of people using them. But for the most part, with Norway being a rural country, people use their weapons for hunting or defence against animals while in the woods or mountains. We also have a lot of gun clubs (if I can call it that) with young and old gathering to shoot and to learn about weapons handling.
With that said it is worth mentioning that we have maybe 20 murders a year here in Norway, (4,6 mill. inhabitants) and few are even committed with guns, so there is no real reason for strict gun control here.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Smaller coutnry - less need
I believe that the guns-to-limit-govt argument is more important for the USA then for smaller countries with lots of neighbors. In the Netherlands, if anything is going to work against our govt power it is going to be voter dissatisfaction (unless you're being invaded of course). Yesterday a newspaper survey showed that 93% of the people here believe that politicians lie and cheat and promise too much, up from 73% or so some 20 years ago. That's at least one good thing.
Unfortunately, we're in the EU... I really don't see any reason why countries like Denmark, Ireland, Netherlands etc shouldn't take Norway as an example of how to treat the EU: have some free trade but don't get involved too deeply. Maybe next generation :-)
The EU
I think you should try as hard as you can to get out of the EU. Do not just stand by and think that this way is the only way. You are the people, do not wait for the next generation, it is up to you!
On the matter of trading with the EU I have this to say:
I've heard that Norway, which is not a part of the EU, do more trade with the European market than a lot of the EU countrys themselves. That, and the fact that this trade union is reforming into a borderless beast of a nation in early 2009 (with the Lisbon Treaty being ratified), are in my view the most important reasons for not joining/staying in the EU.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Glad to hear about your country's
letting you have guns. It seems that so many countries have more freedoms than ours in so many areas, yet so many of them have no gun rights. And that is a major one. Also, while studying World History in the lower years in our homeschool, the children (and us) read a story of Norway called "Snow Treasure". It was about gold being smuggled out of Norway by children sneaking it onto a Norwegian freighter, which was supposedly then taken to America, for safekeeping against the Nazis. This was supposedly not necessarily true. Do you know if it was?
The book was children's fiction with fact basis.
Maybe something you can look
Maybe something you can look into regarding this
http://www.warsailors.com...
Snow Treasure
Sorry, I've heard nothing about this book or the story. Had a run at googling it, but nothing turned up other than that it is a childrens book with the content you described.
Anyone else know?
Sounds like a great story anyhow:)
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
It is a GLOBAL problem, - but...
Hi there my Swedish and Norwegian friend, - as well as all the other good folks here on "dailypaul.com".
Here is another person born in Norway who for the last 18 months have been following the Ron Paul movement and the attack on our freedoms and civil rights.
Right now I am in Norway, but last year I made the decision to leave my own country. I have had some terrible experiences with my own government, and perhaps because of just that, I have taken a more sincere interest in these issues than most people.
Ever since I was a very young man, and even lived in the US for more than a year once, I have been a keen friend and supporter of the United States of America. The ONE and only country who stood up for our freedoms and civil liberties. With the staue of LIBERTY as the symbol of all this. I have been taking part in many conferences and conventions in the US over the years, and have felt both proud and happy to be able to stand, listening to the US national anthem when it was played in the convention hall. Yes, I have even been standing like this with tears in my eyes!
These days I have tears in my eyes when watching what is going on in the US and the rest of the free world. But the US situation is the most important one, since your country have been the light of hope for us all. This light simply is not there any more I am so very sad to say.
I used to feel happiness and lots of positive expectations each time I was about to travel to the US. Not any more. These days I do NOT feel good about going there at all. The knowledge of the fact that your government seems to know everything about me, their ability to follow me whereever I go, and the chance of having my laptop computer confiscated, and perhaps even getting myself arrested if I utter a wrong word, makes me afraid. Some time ago I read a post from a man in South America who expressed his concerns and his feelings of being afraid to go to the US. It is a sad state of affairs, but I understand his feelings exactly. And just for the record: This has NOTHING to do with me having anything to hide. It has to do with the fact that I know that our authorities makes too many mistakes. They are arresting and prosecuting too many people who have done nothing wrong. And although "too many" in this context is much less than 1% of the population, it still worries me.
God bless the US, and God bless Dr. Ron Paul! I wish I could be there with you for the big rally soon to take place. I wish I could be there with you in an attempt to regain the good feeling of hearing YOUR national anthem played!!
And to the two guys who posted from Sweden and Norway before me: Although I made the decision to leave my country, we need a Ron Paul kind of movement in Scandinavia too!!
Perspective
The outside perspective fascinates me, especially from those who live in economically or socially more oppressive regimes than we do. It's kind of a window into what we are becoming.
Rakafanten I would have to say that Habeas Corpus has not been revoked for you yet because the government sees no need to do so at this point. Rest assured that, as soon as it is to their advantage, they will trample Habeas Corpus as they have done here in the US.
Remember the Gun Rule - He who has the guns makes the rules.
Who has the guns?
I am afraid you are absolutly right.
But I believe I read somewhere that there are actually more firearms per person in Norway than in the US. So in our case, by that definition; The people make the rules. For now.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
freedom international
It's heartening to see the message of freedom spreading around the world.
Liberty Is Popular
And contagious as well. Eight parties in Norway? That beats our one.
Does a private banking cartel control your monetary system? Just curious.
______________________________________________________
Don't waste time with Obama, McCain, Nader or Barr - join the Campaign For Liberty! http://www.campaignforlib... The Constitution is more important than voting for the evil of 4 lessers.
Eight parties, more or less.
Eight parties, more or less. But even with several parties to vote for, there still is no real alternative for libertarians. We also get brainwashed with the left-right-political-spectrum-nonsense, so there is really no significantly less "statist" party from what I can see.
On the banking issue, I have been unable to compare the Norwegian system to the Fed. Res. system in the US. Much because of my inability to translate the exact meaning of different words used to describe our central bank. We do have a central bank witch is called Bank of Norway. This is in essense a government agency that has been given the right to sue and to be sued in it's own name. I think it is practically the same as the Federal Reserve, but I have a feeling there is something important that I am missing in regards to this.
Maybe someone can help out?
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Thank You For Your Perspective
It is always comforting to know that people are looking for liberty all over the world. . . . If there is no political party advocating liberty in your country, maybe you should start one. Easier said than done, I know. But I think you might be surprise at the support it would gather.
The reason I asked about the bank is because tyranny is made possible by capturing the monetary system of a country. The international bankers gained control of our money in 1914 and its been all downhill ever since.
_____________________________________________________
Don't waste time with Obama, McCain, Nader or Barr - join the Campaign For Liberty! http://www.campaignforlib... The Constitution is more important than voting for the evil of 4 lessers.
Personal and economic freedom
I know about the whole Federal Reserve fraud, and how it has affected the US. In fact, this is the reason I became aware of how important economic freedom really is, and that it is inseparable from the personal freedom that I have always believed in. On the political arena here in Norway the left stands for a kind of government granted personal freedom, while the right pushes for more economic freedom but also represent the political idea of moral control. The important thing I have come to understand, is that personal freedom and economic freedom can not be devided, you can't have one without the other. So I really can see your point about starting a libertartian party here in Norway, but as I wrote in my first post, there hasn't yet been the same kind of awakening here as you have had with the RP campaign, so I think right now it will be a difficult job getting the 5 000 signatures required to establish a party. Nevertheless I am spreading the messeage, and who knows, maybe the enthusiasm will grow to a level where a new party can become reality.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Spesielt det der...
...i løpet av det siste året har jeg lært mer om det amerikanske systemet enn det jeg noen gang har visst om det norske.
Spennende å følge med på siden USA (og England/EU) på mange måter ligger i front ang. forsøkene på å etablere et verdensomspennende totalitært organ.
Men det order seg til slutt;)
Ja, vi får håpe på det beste.
Men ikke ta noe for gitt, kjemp for det du tror på!
Refererer til Nordahl Griegs dikt "Til Ungdommen":
Kringsatt av fiender gå inn i din tid
Under en blodig storm vi deg til strid
kanskje du spør i angst, udekket, åpen
- hva skal jeg kjempe med? hva er mitt våpen?
her er ditt vern mot vold, her er ditt sverd
troen på livet vårt, menneskets verd
:)
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
hej norske vän
I am Swedish and I feel about the same way as you describe.
Though it is a bit worse here since we are in the EU.
You are lucky to not be a member.
Though I am glad we are not in the nato.
I am extremely glad we're
I am extremely glad we're not in the EU. Remember, NATO-memberships are easy to get rid of, but you will never get out of the EU. (Just see how Greenland did when parting the EU back in the 80's i think).
Good to see fellow Scandinavian freedom fighters here.
The best of luck to you.
____________Rakafanten_____________
"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
Tissue Please.
sniff. sniff :)
next election
I will vote for any party that promises (that I can trust) to get us out of the eu.
I don't care about other issues right now. It is the single most paramount topic.
And I will do my best that Sweden never joins the euro...
if worst comes to worst I´ll move to Norway, it is just a few miles away. :)
EU
Same goes for me here in Denmark. Am sick and tired of these ignorant politicians and the EU neo-fascism.
We all begin to realize that the real agenda is to form a Big Brother superstate. Single currency controlled by the banking cartel.
Just read swedish PM Frederik Reinfeldt attended this years Bilderberg conference. Wonder what position he will be offered once they have brainwashed him....
The ignorance is striking. Just learned a former reporter from the national tv channel, DR / Denmark Radio wants to become a member of the eu parliament as a candidate for "Venstre". The fool told the media that one of his goals is to "hype" the EU.
We need a freedom movement in Scandinavia NOW!