Explaining the collapse in silver... Here's the proof of manipulation....
Posted August 25th, 2008 by Kagiman
output
The Smoking Gun
By: Theodore Butler
-- Posted 22 August, 2008 | Digg This Article | Discuss This Article - Comments: 11
For years, the data contained in the weekly Commitment of Traders Report (COT), issued by the CFTC, have indicated that several large COMEX traders have manipulated the price of silver and gold. For an equal number of years, the CFTC has reluctantly responded to public pressure over this issue with blanket denials of any wrongdoing. Many analysts have agreed with the CFTC’s position, conjuring up various ways to explain why a massive short position held by a handful of traders is not manipulative.
The recent widespread shortage of silver for retail purchase coupled with a price collapse appears to have shaken these analysts’ confidence that the COMEX silver market is operating ‘fair and square.’ Well it should, since there is no rational explanation for a significant price decline going hand in hand with product shortages other than collusive manipulation.
For any remaining doubters that COMEX silver and gold pricing is manipulated, the following CFTC data should be considered. This data is taken from a monthly report issued by the CFTC, called the Bank Participation Report. Here’s the link for the report -
http://www.cftc.gov/marke... The relevant data is found in the July and August futures sections. I will condense it.
These facts speak for themselves. Here are the facts. As of July 1, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 6,199 contracts of COMEX silver (30,995,000 ounces). As of August 5, 2008, two U.S. banks were short 33,805 contracts of COMEX silver (169,025,000 ounces), an increase of more than five-fold. This is the largest such position by U.S. banks I can find in the data, ever. Between July 14 and August 15th, the price of COMEX silver declined from a peak high of $19.55 (basis September) to a low of $12.22 for a decline of 38%.
For gold, 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 7,787 contracts (778,700 ounces) in July, and 3 U.S. banks held a short position of 86,398 contracts (8,639,800 ounces) in August, an eleven-fold increase and coinciding with a gold price decline of more than $150 per ounce. As was the case with silver, this is the largest short position ever by US banks in the data listed on the CFTC’s site. This was put on as one massive position just before the market collapsed in price.
This data suggests other questions should be answered by banking regulators, the CFTC, or by those analysts who still doubt this market is rigged. Is there a connection between 2 U.S. banks selling an additional 27,606 silver futures contracts (138 million ounces) in a month, followed shortly thereafter by a severe decline in the price of silver? That’s equal to 20% of annual world mine production or the entire COMEX warehouse stockpile, the second largest inventory in the world. How could the concentrated sale of such quantities in such a short time not influence the price?
Is there a connection between 3 U.S. banks selling an additional 78,611 gold futures contracts (7,861,100 ounces) in a month, followed shortly by a severe price decline in gold? That’s equal to 10% of annual world production and amounts to more than $7 billion worth of gold futures being sold by 3 U.S. banks in a month. How can this extraordinary concentrated trading size not be manipulative?
Because prices fell so sharply after the short sales were taken (with the appropriate dirty tricks as I have previously explained) holders of known physical silver in the world suffered a decline in value of more than $2.5 billion and long COMEX silver futures holders suffered a similar $2.5 billion decline in the value of their contracts. In gold, because the dollar value held is much greater than silver, investor losses were much greater, on the order of hundreds of billions of dollars on their physical holdings. Declines in the value of mining shares adds many billions more. Was this loss of value caused by the concentrated short selling of 2 or 3 U.S. banks?
What real legitimate business do 2 or 3 U.S. banks suddenly have for selling short such quantities of speculative instruments over a brief time period? Do we want banks to be engaging in this type of activity? If the manipulation was not successful, would U.S. taxpayers be called on to bail out yet another bank speculation gone bad?
Do the traders who lost money in the recent price collapse of silver have a reason to believe that their money is now in the pockets of these two or three U.S. banks? If so, do they have recourse?
The data in the Bank Participation report is clear and compelling. that it is hard to conclude anything but manipulation. It is beyond credulity to conclude other than two or three banks caused one of the most severe price collapses in precious metals history. The CFTC has a lot to answer for as the regulatory agency responsible for preventing this type of blatant manipulation.
Bookmark/Search this post with:
After reading
all of the comments below.....all i can say is Buy, Buy and then again buy now!!!
And hold physical...you will thank me if you can get a hold of it....
Nothing in the Constitution about price fixing with the dollar!
The Constitution doesn't require that the dollar be pegged at any fixed value of copper to silver or silver to gold. In fact the Constitution doesn't say anything about a dollar, it just refers to coined money in silver and gold. The ratios came along with Hamilton's monetary reforms. So this pretty much was a price fixing by the government. A better way would be for the government just to mint coins, small weights up to 31.1034768 grams, a troy ounce, in silver and then do the same with gold, of course copper could be part of the group forming a tri-metal system, but just weights no ratio values. Let the market decide the exchange rate. Let the dollar fall, it isn't protected by the Constitution, only silver and gold ever were.
grant
http://www.joecobb.com/es...
Face Fixing
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
Hey Big Daddy...
Didja get my private email?
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
I'll check email...
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
Hey preferred!
Name one of the free market economists, of all the ones you know that says price fixing is fair in a free market.
Captain Beyond...
Man I haven't heard THAT album in 25 years! You gotta be OLD!
**“The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them.” ~ Mark Twain **
You must be old also, I'll take it as a compliment, Thank You
Good music stands the test of time, it was recorded in 69' I believe. Ron Paul is 73 what do you call him, older I hope.
it's called 'price fixing'
and yes this is illegal. If not then we aren't functioning in a free market. This means that every business should meet daily to talk about what they are going to charge you for your gas at the gas station, your groceries, airline ticket and on and on. People have gone to jail for this and so should the central bankers and those behind the stock market and everyone out there manipulating the system. We are trying to function in a system where everything is fixed and people with power are conspiring around us daily.
Price fixing is allowed in a free market.
A free market is an unregulated market.
All free-market economists that I'm aware of support the right to price fix.
Price fixing is a contract between owners of something. If you believe in free markets, you believe in the right to make a contract without government interfering with it. So by prohibiting it by law, you're violating private property rights, i.e. the right to sell your property for any price you wish, and the right to contract with other property owners to sell their property at any price they choose.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
you really are an idiot!
you really are an idiot!
Price Fixing is Illegal in any market period.
Not that it doesn't happen but it is illegal.
Investment Dictionary: Price Fixing
Establishing the price of a product or service, rather than allowing it to be determined naturally through free market forces. This procedure is often an illegal practice.
Business Dictionary: Price-Fixing
Under federal Antitrust Laws, combination or conspiracy for the purpose and with the effect of raising, lowering, or stabilizing the price of a commodity in interstate commerce.
Real Estate Dictionary: Price Fixing
Illegal effort by competing businesses to maintain a uniform price, such as the Commission rate on the sale of real estate.
Example: Real estate brokerage commissions are negotiable. Many years ago a real estate board adopted a standard commission rate for all its members but dropped that requirement because it was ruled illegal price fixing.
Business Encyclopedia: Price Fixing
Price fixing is the conspiracy by several manufacturers to set prices for goods or services above the normal market rate. The U.S. Justice Department (DOJ) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) are the regulatory bodies responsible for determining whether companies are involved in price-fixing tactics. Both bodies have the ability to impose heavy fines on those companies found to be conspiring to fix prices.
By the way can you name some of the Free Market economists that agree that price fixing is o.k.?
It's illegal in an unfree market. How about Ron Paul?
"Price fixing is impossible to achieve in a free market. Under today's laws, talking to, or consulting with, competitors can be easily construed as "price fixing" and involve a serious crime, even with proof that the so-called collusion never generated monopoly-controlled prices or was detrimental to consumers." - Ron Paul http://www.ronpaullibrary...
This is the free-market economist position. A price-fixing agreement breaks down in practice. It's too difficult to keep in place for long, so just leave the government out of it. The free-market economist position is that the only government can truly fix prices.
Here is a video of Ron Paul and an economist speaking against antitrust laws, and laws against price fixing: http://www.lppgh.org/2008... Paul says "we ought to get rid of the laws.."
It's also pointed out that Adam Smith opposed laws against price fixing. This standard free-market economics. Price fixing should be legal.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
RP and Free markets
I think that what he is suggesting in his statement, "Price fixing is impossible to achieve in a free market.", is that if we truly had free markets then due to the principals of a free market, price fixing would be impossible.
Then he goes on to state, "Under today's laws, talking to, or consulting with, competitors can be easily construed as "price fixing" and involve a serious crime, even with proof that the so-called collusion never generated monopoly-controlled prices or was detrimental to consumers." Here he is just stating a point, he is not supporting price fixing.
He knows TPTB are price fixing, or suppressing the price of precious metals and I will guarantee that he does not agree with that or any other price fixing regime. In a free market it would be impossible to fix price if the laws of supply and demand were left to unfettered market forces. I think you are misinterpreting what he and other economists are saying about price fixing.
As far as other economists saying they agree with price fixing you are crazy not even Adam Smith is suggesting that. Enough said for me.
You're minstinterpreting.
Watch the video. All true free market economists are opposed government regulation of markets. Prohibiting price fixing is regulation.
I wasn't saying they support price fixing. I was saying they oppose laws against it. Opposing laws against price fixing is not the same thing as supporting price fixing. It's simply supporting a free market.
"Economic matters aside, [price fixing does] not violate any property rights in the ordinary use of the term-that is, [it does] not involve force, fraud, or misrepresentation- yet [its] regulation or prohibition by the state directly violates the property rights of the market participants. From a strict libertarian or natural rights position, therefore, the antitrust laws are inherently unjust." - Dominick I. Armentano (who is in the video with Dr. Paul)
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
Finally was able to watch the video
And an excellent video it is, context makes all the difference in the world. You are talking about price fixing in a perfect free market which we do not have. The professor in the video is one smart and well researched dude. I don't think there was anything that I disagreed with in his or Ron Paul' talks.
Then again we live in a different world today with the Government gone wild right before the collapse of their now global empire. The price fixing you should concern your self right now is happening everyday on the CRIMEX. Oh but thats right you don't own any gold or silver, so go play your big trading game, and leave the hard assets to us.
By the way I posted a reply to your initial reply after I had a chance to watch the video why don't you go check it out.
well in theory I would agree
but with the Fed and central bankers controlling the supply of money and everything around us, these big players run everything. The bankers are the biggest price fixers. No matter what we can't win in the system and there is no such thing as free markets today. To much power in the hands of a few. This is why were were warned of central bankers by the founders.
The interest rate
is definitely fixed by government force. That's not free market of course. But the solution to that is not to bring in even more government force to keep people from "price fixing."
I don't know what you mean by you can't win the system. If you're talking about trading, I have some friends that make money consistently in the market. The idea is just to recognize that big players move the market, and they have more information than you, including inside information. If you realize that and accept it, you're no longer trying to trade on fundamentals, but technicals. The idea is just the ride the market movers' coatails, not to bet against them and the trends they create.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
Interest rates set by the FED are only for overnite rates for
primary dealers at the fed window. All other rates for different maturities are set in the bond market. The bond market is supposed to operate on free market principals as is the COMEX (Commodities Exchange-often referred to as the CRIMEX for good reason), and the NYMEX (NY Mercantile Exchange). Price Fixing is illegal on these exchanges, although they price fix all the time. The regulators look the other way so that they can give the impression to the public that everything is ok.
So really what are you getting paid.
You are here all the time spewing your attack on whomever posts. I'm just curious cause I am looking for some part time work.. I figure the pay is good or else you would put up with as much as you do to spread dissension.
Oh P.S. This explanation is complete bullshit. You're telling us to follow the leader of the companies that manipulate the system.. That is pitiful.
OK Kagiman. I got it.
Now go "have fun" per Ron Paul.
http://www.republicmagazi...
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
Point taken....
Understanding the commodity markets I always thought it had to be played by actual commodity being bought and sold... I was talking with a trader that remarked that if the Hunts would have taken delivery of their owned contracts then there may have been a different lesson learned.....
What you call manipulation
I call trading. So what if you make a trade large enough that you're affecting the price? That's part of trading. It's a game. Everyone is trying to outsmart and trick each other, in order to take each other's money away from them. That's how you play. If you don't like the game, you don't have to play.
I think its funny that no one around here was claiming "manipulation" when prices were going up. They only claim manipulation when prices go down. I guess it's not manipulation if you're making money, but it's manipulation when you're losing money, right?
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
Large enough trade my ass
You think this is a game! What did your Daddy fill your pockets with gold and send you off to the market? This is not a game. These guys (apparently your pals) run rough shod in the markets and destroy free market competition, and you think its a game.
There are some rules that need to be adhered to, or do you prefer anarchy? Just like we have standards for weights and measurements, we need to have some rules for trading in the markets. If for nothing else it is so that we know what to expect before we put are hard earned capital at risk.
You may not like the rules and regulations that govern the commodities markets, and I won't pretend that I know what they all are, but from the standpoint that they exist and I have to follow them, I expect others to have to abide by the rules also.
You make a mockery of the initial thread piece presented for informational purposes on the behalf of the Honorable Ted Butler on a subject that that is near and dear to many of us here at DP.
TPTB are intentionally depressing the price of precious metals in order to save a corrupt and dying monetary system that only benefits those few who are breaking the rules in their favor. If you see this as a game like you say, I pity you. Do you think that the big trade you are referring is somebody just playing a game, because if you do you are sadly mistaken.
The money they get for that big trade you are talking about comes from the big investment banks like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan and their ilk. These are primary dealers of the FED, the ones we would like to see disappear. They are stealing hard earned money from us on a daily basis and I guess you want them to stay around so you can have fun with your little trading game and pocket a few more coins.
Just out of curiosity what do you think the fair value of an ounce of gold or silver would be if it was freely traded in the markets right now, taking into consideration the dreadful financial condition the US finds itself in, and what would you base that price on? I would be glad to give you mine if you dare proffer a figure.
By the way your remark about claiming manipulation only when the price goes down just proves to me that you do not have any gold or silver and looking down the road I think that may be the funniest thing of all. I look forward to your response.
the problem is when more
the problem is when more then 1 party is in agreement with each other to control a market! it is illegal to this.. when you have only 4 traders controlling 80% of the market! that is what the cftc/and other government regulators are supposed to control and don't!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
That shouldnt be illegal.
Whether you think it's manipulation or not, you can still make money off of someone else's manipulation if you realize that they're manipulating.
If 4 traders are controlling 80% of the market, so what? That's because they own 80% of the market. Why should the market be fair?
A little guy should not be trading on fundamentals. He should watching trends in the commodity, understanding that the big guys move the market. He should just be trying to ride their coattails.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
its collusion moron!
its collusion moron!
it's called 'price fixing'
and yes this is illegal. If not then we aren't functioning in a free market. This means that every business should meet daily to talk about what they are going to charge you for your gas at the gas station, your groceries, airline ticket and on and on. People have gone to jail for this and I think remember some VPs from ADM who got caught doing this about 15 years ago for price fixing bean meal. I think they were charged for this white collar crime and sent to jail. As a matter of fact, there are a lot of people who should be in jail right now, including the central bankers and those behind the stock market and everyone out there manipulating the system. But now it seems like they are all too big and we have sort of grown accepting of their strategy and power around us.
Price fixing is free market.
A free market is an unregulated market.
All free-market economists that I'm aware of support the right to price fix.
Price fixing is a contract between owners of something. If you believe in free markets, you believe in the right to make a contract without government interfering with it.
----
Don't blame me if there's no voice for liberty opposing McCain and Obama in the Presidential debates. I donated to Ron Paul Libertarian, Bob Barr's campaign.
I guess this means stay away from silver
They control the price and unless you are hanging with them they will take your money.
I owned silver at the bottom and sold at 9.25. Then I tried to trade the silver market and lost all I had gained.
It is their casino....you think you can outsmart them?
The dollar seems to be bottoming. Do not trade with emotions. Commodities charts DO NOT look good now...unless you want to be short.
If this post pisses you off that means you are trading with emotions and we already figured out that is not the way to go.
Silver should be about $54 an ounce now. Today's silver number just goes to show you that "they" have the juice and you don't. If you trade every dollar you lose is theirs...you want to help these creeps?
the point being is that all
the point being is that all manipulations end badly.. and they end badly for the manipulators.. buy physical (if you can even find any to buy)
and hold... at some point the manipulators are going to get skinned because the physical market will take out the paper market! right now the
physical market prices are higher then the spot prices.. it won't happen over night but it is happening. its just a matter of time.
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
yes...warbucks is right...
this is a basic technical pullback. technical charts have shown this for many months that commodities were overbought. the "hypsters" will get you into trouble if you do not understand this. also the big money is always gone in the summer for their 3 month vacations. expect new movements to start happening in the next month. once the big boys think they understand the outcome of the election they will take their positions according to the stances of the new administration.
I did think there may be trouble...
When I saw the lower high, I knew it could be a blood bath..... But the street price is around 17 or 18 for silver.... All the world is a stage, and everything will unfold when the elite want to or can't hold their finger in the dam anymore....
Ted Butler said there was a
Ted Butler said there was a good chance according to the COT's that silver should have 1 more sell off.. and guess what it sold off! BUT! the problem is at a much lower price there is still no silver to be found.. now I'm not talking about the 10 or 50- or even 100 ounces at your neighborhood store! I'm talking the guy who wants to buy 100, 200 or 500k worth.. the silver is just not available in those quantities!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
agreed...
it looks like the charts will 'doji' on support in the price area we are at right now according to the weekly and monthly charts. i'm concerned about the double top formation though... we will see if we can break up through the $20-$21 level. if Russia attacks Israel...we will all see it...i unfortunately see all the sword rattling as posturing in the world order that they are trying to acheive...once the agreements have been made and finalized it will set the stage for the collapse of the United States to bring us into submission to the one world government.
3 big investors, I believe
3 big investors, I believe banks, only increased their short position very significantly in July - to the tune of 2.2 billion dollars or so.
Surely all that selling is what caused gold and silver to crash. What they will soon learn is that all they did was made it cheaper for the rest of us to buy.
When the time comes for them to cover their shorts they'll be losing lots of money. Chances are that they will not be able to wait until their trades are profitable because they probably will end up cash strapped in the near future.
Need to call their bluff.
It appears to me that COMEX operates as did many banks in the past. They say they have metal to back the contracts they sell, but unless people call for delivery they will never know for sure. If banks never experienced a run with people trading in their paper certificates to withdraw their silver and gold, then banks never would have fallen in days of the depression. The banks would have just printed more certificates or bank notes. The same thing I imagine is happening at the COMEX, they don't have enough silver or gold to back their investors. Investors need to call for deliver and get physical possesion of their goods. Then we will see the truth, which is that there really isn't enough.
grant
One thing about the runs back then...
That was how they consolidated their power back then.... They let any bank that would not fall under their system to fail... But if you took FDIC insurance and played by their rules then you would stay in business... Depression was really meant for the Federal System to consolidate its power...
Er...Maybe they know how to read charts
Anyone (not just conspirators) had access to the charts that indicated a correction (not collapse) taking shape back in March.
The banks needed the money maybe?
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
What chart do you need....????
These guys weren't reading charts... You can read charts a million ways... But it's a moot point to read the tea leaves if you have the ability (via FED) to create that much money in order to short the market. Reread the article, knowing total supply of the gold and silver and then you create 20% of the market by shorting it. They succeeded, but I might tell some people holding the silver in brokerage accounts to take delivery of what's supposedly held. We'll see if the storage fee's are applicable to real possession.
!!!!!Kagiman!!!!!: relax a minute and learn something useful.
My point is the correction was not sudden.
I took a conservative short position in Aug Gold from 922. In two weeks it profited $140k. 10 full sized contracts.
Everything isn't a conspiracy.
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
I'm not fighting with ya...
But if this was a hedge fund or somewhat more of a speculative outfit, then I would understand. Remember, you're accusing these banks of knowing markets yet purchasing trillions of toxic waste called subprime mortgages. Am I wrong?
you had me at 'ya'
My experience in trading is that hedge funds ARE the herd.
They bring in momentum via panic and blackbox trades.
I have more hedge fund and retail trader blood on my monitors than banks.
Banks have traders who execute for them. They saw an opportunity.
I just waited patiently for the sideways channel top at 922 to run out of gas and then, 'whoosh!'. It took a bigger dive than I was anticipating.
"Committed To The Eradication Of Poverty Among Patriots"
this manipulation will come
this manipulation will come back to bite the manipulators in the butt... hope you all are adding to your position... that is if you can find any silver to add! he who laughs last laughs loudest! can you say! ROCKET TO MARS!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD
What facts or PROOF... some
What facts or PROOF... some people on here can't handle the truth! or FACTS! LOL ROTFL!
as for me and my home, we shall worship the LORD