I think I know how we can win, and win big
Posted August 27th, 2008 by jzneff
output
I know I may have crossed a few of you at some point, please understand I don't mean to, I've come here to engage in some discussion for the first time with people who've belived for decades how I have believed only a short time.
I think what I really want is somehow for this movement to keep moving. Dr. Paul wants us to grow into something that can accomplish what he's worked his entire life on. He wants this movement to grow from his wisdom and the courage he's shown in the past 3 decades. I look at hiim as our true Benjamin Franklin.
Please, I only intend this post to be a request for input, if you disagree with some examples, please respond respectfully.
I think we need to agree upon a number of core demands we want from the federal government. We need a clear message that we can speak to the world. I intend this to be very obvious and clear demands that every American is making from their government.
Can I suggest a list of 10 things...a bill of rights we want back?
1) We want The Constitution obeyed, we want the federal governement limited to specific funtions as described in The Constitution, with no more implicit powers not listed.
2) We want the federal income tax lifted and never returned by absolute law. You work for your money, you should be able to keep every dime of it. It is not the business of the federal government to steal in order to run.
3) We want our borders, our defense, and our homeland security to lay with the department of defense. Our troops should only be deployed in times of defense of the country of a real threat. We should only have our troops in another country during times of declared war by the US Congress.
4) We want the federal government to control the US southern border. Find a political solution for immigration, but in the meantime, at least control and identify people who enter our country every day.
5) We want an end to the war on drugs. Regardless of what individual states allow or prohibit, it is no longer the business of the federal government to interfere.
6) Save our dollar, the goal of the federal reserve in the immediate term should be absolute non intervention into the market. Our ultimate goal should be the removal of the federal reserve and return the power to print to the Department of Treasury.
7) The US government should cease to compete in any way with its citizens.
8) All treaties not properly approved by congress shall be dissolved. All treaties reducing the soverignty of the United States shall be cancelled. The economic policy of the United States should be a single, uniform impor/export tax.
9) We want to know. We the people demand to know what our government has been up to.
10) With the digital age, we must redefine the government's role in our affairs. Stop spying on me.
Please...some input, suggest an addition or a deletion!!!
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During the late 1700's and the signing of the Constitution,,,,
(1789),Constitutional $$ WAS gold and silver coin. Paper money or Confederate money evolved during the Revolutionary War as a means to help finance the war; however, paper money is not, as defined by our Constitution, money at all.
You're right...
We're way off track from the path our founding fathers recommended. Some things are going to be simple for us to correct, some things are going to take a lot of time and effort.
Our money may be the toughest challenge we face. We've spent a century building this entrenched system of fiat and banking, it's tough to fathom a way back.
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. Can you suggest a first step that might be easy to swallow for the populace, would point us in the direction of honest money, and hopefully avoid a inflationary collapse?
I suggested that we legalize competing currencies and restrict the printing of treasury debt to a fixed number, the GDP for example. This would allow some competition and keep them honest, and would pull the brakes on the inflationary tax.
Please, suggest a alternative to that.
Okay, I'm a little embarrased to ask
(But if we believe the urgings of our state-sponsored public school teachers, there's no such thing as a dumb question, right?) I've seen a reference to tin foil hats several times. What does that mean? I hope I don't have one, becuase it usually sounds derrogatory. That said, I like your thinking on this 10 Demandments thing jzneff. Sadly, I may be too old and too cynical, but I think the vast majority of humans tend to perseverate on insignificant and uncontrollable things UNTIL things reach crisis status. I'm just hoping we get to crisis status soon so we can get on with the revolution.
Tin foil hats...
...are to protect you from mind readers. It makes us seem like paranoid conspiracy theorists (which most of us are). My favorite movie that includes this theme is Signs http://www.imdb.com/title... I have loved all of the M. Night Shyamalan movies that I have seen.
thanks
Thank you for the info regarding hats midwife. I haven't seen Signs. Maybe now I will.
I'm glad we're having this
I'm glad we're having this discussion, because we should have been having it for the last year.
Our ideas, our platform, are not some silly little detail. They are EVERYTHING. I would go so far as to say that one reason we're losing the current political battle is because it hasn't been addressed.
Even Bush and the neo-cons claim to stand for "freedom". Obama claims to stand for "change". In both cases, it's the antithesis of the truth, but how do our philosophies come across clearly? They don't. All most people know about Ron Paul after over a year of his candidacy is that he believes in the gold standard. If they've heard of him at all.
We have not been communicating our ideas effectively. Singing Kumbaya while holding hands, talking about "waking up", and fantasizing about taking over the most powerful political entity in the world "from within" has availed us nothing.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
uhmmmmmmmm...
Wasn't this all decided when Ron Paul was running back in 1988?
Where have you been hiding all this time jzneff -- looking in the sky for $70 oil?
I agree that we need to stand for something
I talk to Obama supporters and they are all for change but when you ask them to be point specific about what he wants to change and what they think needs to be changed and how his voting record reflects that change, they are like deer lost in the headlights. They are attracted to a word. If I don't like how things are now then I must want "Change". We need to be very on point about what kind of change we want and make that change something that all people can believe in. I was involved with the Ross Perot movement and United We Stand and the Reform Party and the major down fall was that we were united behind a leader that meant well and was against some of the right things and not a party bought and payed for politician but he had no coherent philosophy. That gave the movement no sticking power. With Ron Paul we have more then just a man, we have his record of service an a coherent philosophy. All powers are first vested in the people of this country. We the people! The state and federal government do not grant us rights. Our rights are what we are born with. The right to be absolutely free. The thing is the right to be free is one thing and the ability to protect your freedom is another. The reason we formed the federal government was to protect our freedom. Read the Constitution. Its all there and we do not need to go any further. We granted the federal government limited powers, which dose not include any agency powers. Pick any FDA, INS, ATF, IRS what ever initial you want to give them but the constitution dose not allow the federal government to give legislative, exeuctive, or judicial powers to anyone but to the branch of government assigned by the Constitution. I say read the document and understand it and that is the most powerful platform we can have. Stick to the rule of law.
Oh, I forgot to add...
We're likely to move up from DEFCON 4 to DEFCON 3 in the next 3 weeks when the missle fleets come within range of the med.
You need you to sort of....hurry.
Jamie Yarborough!
" You need to sorta...hurry"
It is late but I just came across this and I just have to give you a bump!
What is it that people do not understand? I forgive the sheep ..but where is OUR sense of urgency?!!!!
We can discourse forever on a number of topics...but where is the URGENT...EMERGENCY ...coming to ACTION?! IT is going to take LARGE numbers of VERY LOUD CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE!!!
And quick! Jamie...I agree...HURRY!!! Please! Stop pontificating to razzel dazzel yourselves and realize there is VERY LITTLE TIME!!!
**************
"Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave fast enough to be a new source of energy independence."~ samthurston
http://www.campaignforlib...
Good stuff...sorry
I am sorry for not reading all the comments before me to see if this is a duplicate question but I do want you to personally send me the answer directly rather than post it. I use a different screen name for this subscription and may not see it immediately. And, I would appreciate a quick response.
Your list is impessive and I applaud it. It, unfortunately is what exactly, a list of suggestions? Wants? Demands? Respectful requests???
And if "WE" don't get them even with all the logical philosophical backing, then what????
What I am asking it not a question of "what" - it's HOW. Followed by WHEN.........!?!?!?!?!!!!! Oh, just throw "who" and "where in for good messure. I think I have the why figured out.
Good question
It is absolutely a list of demands. These are very basic things that should be changed today in our government, and I intend this list to be one that most people in our country can agree need to be changed. If we can come up with 10 (arbitrary number, but it sounds official) demands that many Americans have been screaming for for years or decades, and make this our central platform, it can advertise our cause and bring more people into it. I hate how our movement has been portrayed as a tinfoil hat living in Mom's basement wackos, when actually we are demanding what all Americans would like to have.
These are intended on being very short term demands, a step 1 to fixing our country if you will. This may very well be a very long road, but defining the first steps will help us along.
With these demands, think bottom up, as it was put before. At the local level, demand that your representatives to DC embrace and agree with these demands, or else work to defeat them with someone who will. That is the intention of the CFL, to support candidates who will support freedom.
We all come to this movement from different backrounds and for different reasons, but I think defining what is central to all of us will grow this movement.
I think I answered your question...as to the how, that's for you to answer. Deliver this message as best as you know how, some might do a mass email, some might put it on a blimp. ; ) I have faith that this movement can answer the how.
When? Do what you can to support freedom minded candidates in 2008, then especially when the nomination process begins for the 2010 elections, be ready to support freedom minded candidates who espouse our beliefs.
PAY ATTENTION!! Answer this post by email as requested above!
He is asking for direct input to his email...and quickly...for questions posed above...stay on topic and do it!
We are geting alot of interest with the rally and convention and visitors are here looking for "the story" please all ....do your best!
***************
"Thomas Jefferson is rolling in his grave fast enough to be a new source of energy independence."~ samthurston
http://www.campaignforlib...
I think it's very good to
I think it's very good to have a solid platform, so I agree with some of your ideas.
Now we need to figure out how to win races.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Federal Income Tax
I abhor the federal income tax.
However, I am willing to pay the income tax until the national debt is cleared (I'm willing to pay to fix the mistakes of the past -- so long as that and is the only thing that it goes to). And I am willing to pay an income tax during a time of congressionally declared war for war receipts and to pay off debt accrued as a result of war receipts.
gov't donations
yonemoto said: ... I am willing to pay the income tax...
It's your choice to donate. Please don't force me to donate.
In the past, wars were funded explicitly with war bonds. Now the spending is rolled into the growing deficit.
I'm not. But I am willing
I'm not.
But I am willing to compromise on the taxation issue if need be until the American people come around.
It will take awhile to convince the people that we can live without a Federal Income Tax. It may be necessary to take out the Income Tax with downgrades, like a sales tax-based system.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Kevin Tuma said: It may be
Kevin Tuma said: It may be necessary to take out the Income Tax with downgrades, like a sales tax-based system.
I don't trust them. I expect we would end up with both a new sales tax and the income tax.
I don't trust them, either,
I don't trust them, either, but almost anything is better than what we have now.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Mad Men
Jeff, it's a big leap from 10 demands to winning big. Your list is great, but it doesn't do anything to stir the masses, the millions in the majority who have other priorities in their lives. Winning requires a winning message, and that means a message that motivates action.
Your $70 oil thread was above my paygrade on some of the deeper issues like the Iranian Bourse and deflationary pressures, but marketing free enterprise and small govt is certainly not. Winning messages require thinking like sheeple and not being inflexible and enraged because (DPers in general) we cannot frickin' believe sheeple don't care enough about privacy, and the constitution and free markets and troops dying, etc etc. Winning messages require powerful simplicity, to HELP THEM BEGIN TO BELIEVE, i.e. Ross Perot got millions so pissed about deficits, they wanted to vote for him. Winning messages are not formed by extensive debates on sub-issues.
Like Don Draper (any Mad Men fans here?) to his clients, marketers go beyond believers, and the gulf in-between is often huge. One recent attempt of mine to win sheeple is at the link below. It helps explain where I'm coming from.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
Martin Luther simply nailed his 95 thesis
on the church door in Wittenberg, sparking the Reformation of the church. Times have changed...I suppose
www.dvds4delegates.com
Times have changed
People didn't have to listen to the constant propaganda flowing from their telescreens clouding their judgement in Luther's day.
People literate enough to
People literate enough to read and write were far more educated in period times. In the Renaissance, Colonial era, and the Nineteenth Century, the idiots were just idiots. Today, idiots are educated far beyond their own levels of intelligence.
What we have today is a population of mostly literate people who are profoundly ignorant.
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
I just voted for Obama in a McCain vs Obama straw poll
Those were the only 2 choices I had and in order to see the results I had to pick one- dont read too much into my choice. Obama is reported as having 12% while McCain is at 72%. The fake polls are starting- paving the way for Diebold to ensure we get 4 more years of the same policies that they rigged on us in the last 2 elections. No one likes McCain- the only way people will beleive THIS rigged election is from the fake polls. (Start throwing tomatoes at me- Im allowed my opinion)
www.dvds4delegates.com
True
But they also didn't have the means of speedy communication as we have. I posted this last night, and already it's been read on 2 continents and probably almost 50 states.
Yes, it's a different day...but it doesn't take much convincing to get people to get behind the principals that are already in their heart.
This list should read like a no brainer, of course we want these things.
Unlike the telescreen...the boob tube has a great invention. The on/off button.
On this we agree
The internet is the equalizer and perhaps our greatest tool. I just don't think that it is enough to get people to read our principals, we need people to act on them and that is what our greatest challenge is going to be; how do we motivate people?
I don't know
I'm sure it won't be as easy as making sea monkeys, but I think the next logical step is to define who we are and what it is we want.
I'm not looking to develop principals...think demands. We aren't requesting politely, we're standing up and demanding.
I can't tell you how best to spread the message, it will take the combined efforts of thousands of us to do this.
The CFL is our home now, they have deep pockets and can fund candidates who will espouse our beliefs. If we can communicate that these people will listen to our demands, maybe we can get a few of them elected soon.
I agree with the ten mostly but...
The only way the movement is gonna make any real strides, especially now that we don't have a presidential candidate to back anymore, is if there is some sort of major event that shakes the average citizen to his core and forces him to honestly re-examine the state of the country... or we as a movement embrace the push for 9/11 truth. These are the only two ways that I can see to wake up the rest of the country.
another way
A few thousand of us get elected to local positions like town council and county commission.
This doesn't rely on us convincing other people to do things. It also doesn't mean the CFL funding headline races for federal positions. Maybe they do, maybe they don't - but we get elected on the ground to run the local communities.
This does mean each of us who have awakened will do some work to get elected locally. Is each of us willing to do this work to start the change from the ground up? Or shall we wait for someone else to do the work?
I disagree
We don't need some major event to make us realize what we all want from our government...many of us just need it put in a concise form that can rally the masses.
It didn't take a major tyrannical event to ignite the American Revolution, simply some Common Sense.
You're right
we don't need some major event to make us realize what we want our government to be, but we do need something that is going to motivate the mases to do something about it. When I talk to people about the Federal Reserve, the war on Terror, the erosion of our constitution they agree with me, but we generally differ on the importance of fixing these problems. It is too easy for people to go on with their daily lives at this point. 9/11 truth is the only thing that I have got people to respond passionately about.
The Founding Fathers didn't have to fight the constant flow of lies that comes out of our televisions which is the basis of a large part of this countries view of the world. Our job is considerably harder, it will take more than simple common sense.
Jeff, that's all fine and dandy,
but how does that help Ron Paul win? They're not going to pay him any attention at all, if he's not even in the race.
It doesn't
This movement must transcend Ron Paul if we are to suceed. Someone likened Dr. Paul to Benjamin Franklin.
Franklin was one of the great men who sparked this country, but stepped to the sideline once it had grown beyond him. He spent his golden years watching the greatness he had helped create and went to his grave knowing he had started something great.
Dr. Paul cannot be our leader forever. We must take the wisdom he has left for us and use it to stoke the flames of liberty.
This movement must not be a centrally planned and centrally run movement, as we are arguing for freedom we must use the principals that we espouse and create a million fires of liberty.
We can beat them, but only through the concerted efforts of thousands or millions of "leaders" in this fight. Fight for Dr. Paul's presidency, as it is a noble cause...but be prepared to continue fighting after November, or all we've won will be lost.
Butting in from Europe...
I think it would be great to list out 10 simple and clear demands. I don't think I've ever seen a condensed list of demands by the Ron Paul Revolution and I've been following this Revolution since at least April 2007.
There are so many freedom-lovers in Europe backing your movement. We Europeans have nothing much to look up to. The US Constitution is a direct descendent of the European Enlightenment of the 1700s. Nowhere in Europe did the European Enlightenment take effect as it did with the US constitution. And it is within our European political tradition... but there had been other European traditions, such as Nazism, Sovietism, fascism.,.. and the Inquisition, of course, which has survived in various forms and given rise to totalitarianism many times.
The RP Revolution is our only hope!
For anyone interested in creeping EU totalitarianism, here's my youtube account: http://www.youtube.com/us...
If we can win today
If we can succeed in our movement, it will spread like wildfire.
I want to be looked up to, America can truly be the city on the hill and show by example what we can accomplish.
Unfortunately, we've stood idly by for too long as our power to self govern has been stolen from us. Now is the time to take it back.
If America can throw off the reins and truly be free again, the explosion in sustainable growth will be blinding. That kind of power could never be contained.
We're proud to have you fighting this battle with us, may we someday sit in a London pub and have a pint to freedom!
No
3. No
4. No
6. No, no and no.
So you love
So you love open borders and fiat money? Fiat money is the enabler of growth of government and abuse until inevitable collapse....the source of the business cycle. I understand the open borders argument, but that different....there are many approaches to that. Some think we should build a fence, some think the Federal government or state police should put enforcement people there, some think reducing welfare will solve it. Some think private property and armed citizens can stop it. You can't just disagree and have no legitimate reasons, that would be the action of a McCainiac.
"It is the responsibility of the patriot to protect his country from its government."
— Thomas Paine
?
No to #6? Really? Why?
"The sinews of war are infinite money" ~ Cicero
Please expand
Please tell me what you object to in each of these.
expanding
3) I believe we do not wish to have a standing army, let alone a "department of defense". If a state wishes to use it's militia for border patrol, that would be for that state to decide.
4) Each state can establish rules for immigration. We don't need a "one size fits all" policy handed down from on high.
6) The constitution allows the govt to mint coins - not to "print money". I would prefer the deregulation of "money" including the private minting of coins, and for the free establishment of other means of exchange, like PayPal was supposed to be before the govt disallowed their innovation.
Ok...that's a little clearer
I understand what you're saying now...let me retort.
3) It was a very vocal debate in the infancy of our country if we need a standing army or a "call them when you need them" army. Maybe, eventually, we can have a world where we feel safe enough as citizens that we don't need a standing army.
If we, however, call for disbanding of the military and dissolving of the DoD, we risk getting nowhere with people. That would be an extreme minority position...again, not belittling your position, just trying to be all inclusive.
4) I think this is one of the functions of our federal government. We should have a national policy for migration, and never state policies because we risk having intra-state immigration issues...for example Utah finds Arizona's immigration policy unacceptable and stops allowing people to move from AR to UT. I think we need a uniform entry rule for the country, to maintain our ability to move to any state we please.
6) Yes, competing currencies will stabilize our dollar, and should be legal provided they are not advertised as legal tender.
The distinction between minting and printing is relatively meaningless provided the coins are made of non-precious materials. I would like to have only gold and silver coins as a means of legal exchange, but that is difficult to imagine a smooth transition. That may be our ultimate goal, but this is intended as a first step.
We must be somewhat flexible in our first step in order to include as many people as possible....once we get these things accomplished, freedom can spread like wildfire.
possibly beating a dead horse
3) Your point #1 and #3 are in conflict. #3 is an unconstitutional use of power.
4) Why should UT or any state be forced to accept unchecked immigration, either from other countries or from other states? Why can't the people of UT make those choices for themselves? Hmmm... I suppose UT could impose, say, a million dollar fee for getting a UT driver's license for anyone who has not been a UT resident for 3 years, and require that new arrivals get an annually updated driver's license within 30 days of moving into the state. (I would object to the concept of licensure for any reason, but I suspect you are not there yet, so this example is an elementary one).
6) It never would have occurred to me that you would think that I meant minting junk coins. The coins mentioned in the constitution are silver.
Again, most of your points simply erode the first. It is good that you are thinking, I am not picking on you, just encouraging you to think a little more. The seeds of the destruction of the constitution are within the constitution, itself. Likewise, the seeds of the destruction of your list of ideas are also contained within itself, but are more elementary and accessible.
Cheers!
Great points
I love a great discussion on constitutional law.
3) I disagree, I believe that raising and maintaining army and navy are explicit powers of congress.
"To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces"
This tells me that congress must authorize the funding for an army every two years, but so long as they do, we can have a standing army.
4) I believe the ability to move within the US is a fundamental necessity to having a united country. We risk giving precident to a very slippery slope when we restrict movement from one state to another. Can you imagine if Missouri could say "you are no longer allowed to leave the state of Missouri". I believe migration between the several states should be absolutely unrestricted.
6) This is a very tough challenge...to maintain constitutionality it our money, yet propose a plan that won't collapse our economy. This is where i'm looking for middle ground...where we can return to sound money, but maintain the standard of living we have.
I believe that allowing competing currencies and putting restrictions on the printing press will be a first step in moving us closer to our ultimate goal, that is money that means something tangible.
It will be impossible to switch our money to honest money overnight without a complete and total disruption in our way of life. The demons we are battling are well entrenched within our system, and I haven't heard a concrete plan to eliminate fiat, fractional reserve, and the federal reserve and do so in a way that won't scare the crap out of 95% of Americans. It was a long road to get where we are, it will be a long road to return, I assure you.
I'm not trying to ignore what the constitution explicitly says, simply to come up with a plan that will rally more Americans to our cause.
just one more
We will have to agree to disagree on much. I just wanted to clarify what appears to be a misunderstanding. My example was for the use of extreme obstacles to those moving INTO a state that wishes to restrict immigration.
The definition of democracy must include the consent of the governed, up to and including the ability for an individual, group or state to secede, otherwise it must be tyranny (tyranny of the majority is not democracy). Anyone must be able to move OUT, but there may be highly selective and even punitive hurdles to moving IN, if that be the will of the people of that particular state.
I believe the simple message of returning to the constitution is really the most approachable for the most people. Not every perversion to the constitution is going to be an equal opportunity hot button for every person, which is why the message must be personalized, and personally spread. Once you find one crack in a person's (lack of) satisfaction with the status quo, you can give them a copy of The Pocket Constitution and a copy of Revolution, and Dr Paul can explain the rest of the plan.
How?
I have written about one way to spread this message several times. Here it is in two parts...
Part One
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Part Two
http://www.dailypaul.com/...
Spirited public debate is our right
That is the only way we can learn new ideas and reject wrong ones.
The 10 Demandments!
Good Idea. Smooth out the edges and hope you get a campaign (CFL) strong enough to get the American people wanting to take part. Most of the other serious issues we are tryng to deal with individually such as real ID ect... would be done away with by default under this.
I thought of calling it that...
But i'm sure Hulk Hogan would claim plagarism...
Expand # 6
6) Should include mention of gold and silver money.
Let me explain
In trying to produce something the country can agree upon, I think we need to develop a strategy. Demanding gold and silver backing would be following the advice of the Constitution, but it would also be functionally impossible without upending the economy.
See...there isn't enough gold or silver to back our currency, we would need to destroy the federal reserve, we would need to dismantle the banking industry, in short, it would be very painful.
Not that these aren't worthwhile goals, but these are long term goals to return us to fiscal sanity and honesty, and nothing we could conceivably demand immediate action on.
Perhaps watering down our demands a little, plus granting a full right to competing currencies (backed by precious metals) provided they aren't advertised as legal tender might be a more successful approach.
I know we would love to have real money, but getting there will take a generation of work, and I want these demands to be met immediately.