notice too how they put out to the press about postponing the convention because of this storm- how did they know it would get do huge? and why all of the storms all of the sudden as compared to history etc.
If a private security guard tells me to hand over my firearms, he's knee-deep in a shitstorm. By what authority does Blackwater operate exactly? Is the state allowed to badge anyone during an emergency without a declaration of martial law?
I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...
Laws have been passed in many states and also a federal law last year which prohibits anyone from attempting to confiscate legally owned firearms during any time, including times of national crises / emergency.
I answered this earlier. It depends on a number of factors. First is the nature of the contract. If it is a private contract, they have only the provisions set forth by the laws of that state in regards to private security. In most states, armed security guards have very limited powers of arrest and only within the definition of their duty. For example mall security can arrest and detain shoplifters for the police, etc. If they screw up, they are liable for criminal and civil penalties under the law, same as you.
If in the rare case it is a LEA contract and the private security is deputized, they have relatively the same law enforcement authority for the duration of the contract (also meaning they have to follow LEO rule and regulation dictated by the department that hired them. The administrative authority governs the scope of their ability and they are essentially rented by the department). When the contract is expired, they immediately lose all of that. Personally I do not like PMCs being deputized because PMCs and police use two different rule books and have 2 different sets of training, and they don't mix well. To date, BW has been the only group that has been deputized by police to my knowledge, and I'm not even sure how it came to be. That is a very rare occurrence.
If it is a military contract such as in Iraq and they are in a support capacity of the military, those security personnel fall under military jurisdiction and are subject to charges under a military court as well as international law if operating abroad. The REAL tricky one is a private contract abroad in which, say, a client tells you to get rid of drug dealers squatting on their land and it ends up in a firefight. That is classified as illegal warfare and the company, the client AND personnel can actually be tried for war crimes under the laws of that country and international law.
The US military has been known in the past to set up PMCs in sting operations under a fake contract, then when they show up, there's a bunch of SEALs waiting to bust them. No contractor I work with will go near anything like that out of sheer principle.
If it is an embassy contract in another country, that is the jurisdiction of Dept. of State rather than DoD, and the rules are slightly different.
they have been hyping up this Gustav for days when it was just a tropical storm, (why Gustav and not the others?) so I have had the feeling it would become something big. They have been modifying the weather for many a year. Is this their chance to "modify" any flaws in the first martial law they enforced in the aftermath of Katrina? Something to think about and keep our eyes on.
My thoughts too.... I think this is phase II. More "practice and final eradication of the bottom feeders of this area. I mean look at the pattern. The area is still decimated 3 years later..I think we will not see N.O. survive. I've been wrong before but it feels ominous.
Armed guard Licensing protocols (a security agency licensed in one state can only work in another state for up to 30 days)
Subcontracting references (CA has several large firms that sub out with BW- so it's a logistics thing).
The rules for licensing procedures and personnel logistics are different in each state, and some aren't recognized by the state of Louisiana. This is likely why only certain states are allowed.
I was in there before BW showed up, and believe me we were not at all thrilled to see them. They had just had that big prison scandal in Iraq and it pissed all the other contractors off. They made our job a living hell because they screwed so much up, and in fact they were kicked out once. Not sure how they got back in. Without too much detail, I can tell you that I've seen their guys kicked out of more sites than I can shake a stick at. No one in the industry likes them.
As far as just showing up, as I understood when I asked, they got in there before their contract was actually finalized. They did get hired by clients there, but the paperwork wasn't done yet (if I remember right I think it got done a couple of days later). That is still a breach of protocol on their part and it pissed us off, but given the circumstances at the time, everyone seemed to overlook it.
and in place. They are stationed in New Orleans (I believe, originally it was to be Gonzales I think) as it is expected that the storm will hit the Lafayette area which is west of NOLA.
why before the friggin storm/hurricane even touches close to landfall is there declared a state of emergency? preparedness-yeah right. those people down there will not put up with this taking of their guns, kicking in of their doors again. this is getting interesting...
supplies and personnel can be pre-positioned. The Guard cannot be activated and called up absent such a declaration. This was the major criticism of Gov. Blanco during Katrina, that she refused to issue the declaration in sufficient advance of the storm so the Guard could be ready to act right away.
This is a routine matter, and is done in all other storms in other states as well.
I'm not personally fond of the idea, but I haven't researched the legal issues yet to see how to do it differently without causing another Katrina failure.
There is the slight problem as you may be aware, that such a declaration actually states that the local and State governments are technically overwhelmed and incapable of helping restore order and aid to the people, and thus these declarations allow FEMA and other Federal agencies to ASSUME authority over the region.
So far, this hasn't been abused except in NOLA recently with FEMA commandeering local police communications equipment and diesel fuel. The Sheriff in Jefferson Parish quickly put a stop to that. (alas, he passed away after the storm)
Does anyone have any other examples of the Feds getting a little too overeager in such situations?
The thing about Blackwater I'm curious about is--they have no law enforcement (or official military) designation, is this correct?
Which means if Bubba shoots one of the sons of bitches (or ten of them) with his 12 gauge out on his goat farm, there's no 'capital murder' threat, legally, is there?
Just curious, considering the threat of martial law that's in the back of peoples' minds. Because if push comes to shove, I think a goon without a badge would not necessarily be safe in the hinterlands.
Or do I have it backwards? Is Blackwater a mercenary army composed of LEOs?
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
Notice the call for applicants has a section for off duty officers who have commissions and a badge (a badge alone will not suffice) and that they are certified in certain areas.
If you shoot one of THOSE guys, you will face such charges most likely.
Also, if BW is under government contract, rather than a private one, I would think the charges would stick as well.
This is the essential problem with them. They don't have to obey warrant and search provisions of the constitution, they can shoot you on sight, but you have to play nice.
I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean, but I'm going to give it a shot.
The question seems to be "whose law must we obey?" This is a sticky matter with a few impasses. The simple answer is that it depends on what the contract is.
When a PMC is under government contract and working alongside the military, they are subject to military law. If they do something stupid, they are prosecuted under the UCMJ and/or international law. The big problem here is that by definition, PMCs are civilian, and the public got really pissed off and whined about civilian mercs being tried under military law.
For LEA contract, they are subject to the same provisions of law enforcement, to include criminal proceedings if they overstep the boundaries. They still have to follow the rules. If it is a private contract and they do something dumb, they fall under criminal and/or civil prosecution and are subject to the same penalties. In some ways, private security is actually more regulated than law enforcement is, and we're in much deeper shit if we screw up. We get hit on all fronts, not to mention one screw up will usually blackball you.
Like I've said before, if I pulled even one drop of the crap BW has done while I was on assignment, I'd be locked away in a room and buried under concrete, and no client would ever hire me again, nor would any other agents work with me. The problem with them is that Prince has top level influence, and the corruption we are fighting against tends to cut them a break.
BW is a licensed private security company. By definition, they are no more law enforcement than rent-a-cops. Private security has very limited powers of arrest, and only within the scope of their assigned duties which is a very thin line. During Katrina, they were deputized by law enforcement (a big mistake in my opinion). Private security and LEOs have two different manuals to follow, and they do not mix very well.
There are some contract agencies I have worked for that are law enforcement capable and very professional. On occasion if a police force is too thin to cover an area, they have the ability to contract them to help.
To further contrast, the bigger the company, the lower the quality control. BW is a monster. I have always stuck to the smaller, 12-14 man groups that train together, know each other, and know their job. The smaller groups tend to be very professional, prudent and discreet. Clients don't like huge displays or agents who cause a huge scene. It's a good way to find yourself blacklisted, sued and/or thrown in jail if you did something stupid.
Depending on who contracts them and the nature of the assignment, they can be granted authority to perform the job to which they are assigned. For example, I do dignitary protection at times. Dept. of State grants me certain authority in matters, such as permission to enter areas restricted from the public like airline tarmacs, etc.. it depends on what I am to do, but after the contract is complete, all those privileges are immediately withdrawn.
If recruited by a LEA, I can be deputized within certain guidelines, but this is a very rare occurrence. In fact, to date this has never happened to me.
During Katrina, I was in contact with the Marshals, police, and national guard. If we were in trouble, they came to help, and if they were in trouble and we were close, we came to help, but we weren't deputized.
Our sole purpose there was to render aid, protect, and by authority of law enforcement, we were given limited powers of arrest if we caught people looting pharmacies or making off with DVD players and such. Ironic in a way since we arrested a cop there who stole a big plasma screen TV. One of our patrols caught him loading it in the trunk of a squad car of all things.
Incidentally, my group has been put on alert as well in case New Orleans gets hit badly again. We've been tasked with search and rescue, possibly to escort personnel and supplies as well. All of us are SAR and medic qualified with prior experience there. Hopefully it doesn't come to that again, but we're standing by.
Will Blackwater be another terrorist organization standing in the way of "we the people". Wasn't Blackwater immunity never given in Iraq? Will they be held accountable for murder?
We don't need
the frikkin' military and a bunch of trigger-happy mercenaries to deal with a weather emergency!
On the subject of
a bunch of trigger-happy mercenaries dealing with a weather emergency, I wrote a short story about just that in 2006.
Mt. Ranier erupts and Blackwater is sent to Seattle but, instead of helping, they loot the city. Check it out:
www.axiomaticeconomics.co...
This hurricane is huge !
My heart goes out to to all in the gulf coast area. Please be safe, get inland right away !
http://www.ssd.noaa.gov/g...
-
Show your support on the Ron Paul Map !
People worldwide support Dr. Paul too :-)
http://www.pollingmatrix....
"don't mention HAARP"
and we'll make you the vp nomineee.
exactly!
this 'hurricane' (now a category 4) was a tropical storm yesterday...
exactly
notice too how they put out to the press about postponing the convention because of this storm- how did they know it would get do huge? and why all of the storms all of the sudden as compared to history etc.
~peace
By what authority, other than force, do they operate?
If a private security guard tells me to hand over my firearms, he's knee-deep in a shitstorm. By what authority does Blackwater operate exactly? Is the state allowed to badge anyone during an emergency without a declaration of martial law?
I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...
Laws have been passed in
Laws have been passed in many states and also a federal law last year which prohibits anyone from attempting to confiscate legally owned firearms during any time, including times of national crises / emergency.
Operational Authority
I answered this earlier. It depends on a number of factors. First is the nature of the contract. If it is a private contract, they have only the provisions set forth by the laws of that state in regards to private security. In most states, armed security guards have very limited powers of arrest and only within the definition of their duty. For example mall security can arrest and detain shoplifters for the police, etc. If they screw up, they are liable for criminal and civil penalties under the law, same as you.
If in the rare case it is a LEA contract and the private security is deputized, they have relatively the same law enforcement authority for the duration of the contract (also meaning they have to follow LEO rule and regulation dictated by the department that hired them. The administrative authority governs the scope of their ability and they are essentially rented by the department). When the contract is expired, they immediately lose all of that. Personally I do not like PMCs being deputized because PMCs and police use two different rule books and have 2 different sets of training, and they don't mix well. To date, BW has been the only group that has been deputized by police to my knowledge, and I'm not even sure how it came to be. That is a very rare occurrence.
If it is a military contract such as in Iraq and they are in a support capacity of the military, those security personnel fall under military jurisdiction and are subject to charges under a military court as well as international law if operating abroad. The REAL tricky one is a private contract abroad in which, say, a client tells you to get rid of drug dealers squatting on their land and it ends up in a firefight. That is classified as illegal warfare and the company, the client AND personnel can actually be tried for war crimes under the laws of that country and international law.
The US military has been known in the past to set up PMCs in sting operations under a fake contract, then when they show up, there's a bunch of SEALs waiting to bust them. No contractor I work with will go near anything like that out of sheer principle.
If it is an embassy contract in another country, that is the jurisdiction of Dept. of State rather than DoD, and the rules are slightly different.
Thanx, MW
I learned a lot today. I mean A LOT!!
They had no client or contract in LA.
Nor will they. That's why they can't recruit applicants fro some states.
What I'm curious about...
they have been hyping up this Gustav for days when it was just a tropical storm, (why Gustav and not the others?) so I have had the feeling it would become something big. They have been modifying the weather for many a year. Is this their chance to "modify" any flaws in the first martial law they enforced in the aftermath of Katrina? Something to think about and keep our eyes on.
My thoughts too.... I think
My thoughts too.... I think this is phase II. More "practice and final eradication of the bottom feeders of this area. I mean look at the pattern. The area is still decimated 3 years later..I think we will not see N.O. survive. I've been wrong before but it feels ominous.
What do these states have in common?
OR, WA, CA, NV, NM, AZ, TX, FL, GA, SC, NC, VA, MD, IL, OK
BW is seeking personnel from these states only. Reasons?
(I don't think this in and of itself is any big deal, but I am wondering.)
State List
It's a combination of things:
CCW reciprocity (in some cases)
Armed guard Licensing protocols (a security agency licensed in one state can only work in another state for up to 30 days)
Subcontracting references (CA has several large firms that sub out with BW- so it's a logistics thing).
The rules for licensing procedures and personnel logistics are different in each state, and some aren't recognized by the state of Louisiana. This is likely why only certain states are allowed.
They took it on themselves to show up in NO
In the end even BW wouldn't vouch for their own employees.
Sort of True
I was in there before BW showed up, and believe me we were not at all thrilled to see them. They had just had that big prison scandal in Iraq and it pissed all the other contractors off. They made our job a living hell because they screwed so much up, and in fact they were kicked out once. Not sure how they got back in. Without too much detail, I can tell you that I've seen their guys kicked out of more sites than I can shake a stick at. No one in the industry likes them.
As far as just showing up, as I understood when I asked, they got in there before their contract was actually finalized. They did get hired by clients there, but the paperwork wasn't done yet (if I remember right I think it got done a couple of days later). That is still a breach of protocol on their part and it pissed us off, but given the circumstances at the time, everyone seemed to overlook it.
Is someone deleting posts on here?
I made a comment yesterday on this thread and it's gone.
THANKS
Thanks for this info as we have family on the gulf coast and are trying to keep them informed as they are not on the internet.
Shouldn't the National Guard be called in instead?
just wondering.
The Guard are already activiated
and in place. They are stationed in New Orleans (I believe, originally it was to be Gonzales I think) as it is expected that the storm will hit the Lafayette area which is west of NOLA.
My cousin is in the NG and stationed in Napoleonville
waiting for deployment.
Guess
they are in Iraq.
Dr. Paul cured my apathy
and another thing...
why before the friggin storm/hurricane even touches close to landfall is there declared a state of emergency? preparedness-yeah right. those people down there will not put up with this taking of their guns, kicking in of their doors again. this is getting interesting...
~peace
This is done so
supplies and personnel can be pre-positioned. The Guard cannot be activated and called up absent such a declaration. This was the major criticism of Gov. Blanco during Katrina, that she refused to issue the declaration in sufficient advance of the storm so the Guard could be ready to act right away.
This is a routine matter, and is done in all other storms in other states as well.
I'm not personally fond of the idea, but I haven't researched the legal issues yet to see how to do it differently without causing another Katrina failure.
There is the slight problem as you may be aware, that such a declaration actually states that the local and State governments are technically overwhelmed and incapable of helping restore order and aid to the people, and thus these declarations allow FEMA and other Federal agencies to ASSUME authority over the region.
So far, this hasn't been abused except in NOLA recently with FEMA commandeering local police communications equipment and diesel fuel. The Sheriff in Jefferson Parish quickly put a stop to that. (alas, he passed away after the storm)
Does anyone have any other examples of the Feds getting a little too overeager in such situations?
The thing about Blackwater
The thing about Blackwater I'm curious about is--they have no law enforcement (or official military) designation, is this correct?
Which means if Bubba shoots one of the sons of bitches (or ten of them) with his 12 gauge out on his goat farm, there's no 'capital murder' threat, legally, is there?
Just curious, considering the threat of martial law that's in the back of peoples' minds. Because if push comes to shove, I think a goon without a badge would not necessarily be safe in the hinterlands.
Or do I have it backwards? Is Blackwater a mercenary army composed of LEOs?
SUPPORT OUR FOUNDERS' AMERICA
Support the Constitution of the United States
CORRECTION
Notice the call for applicants has a section for off duty officers who have commissions and a badge (a badge alone will not suffice) and that they are certified in certain areas.
If you shoot one of THOSE guys, you will face such charges most likely.
Also, if BW is under government contract, rather than a private one, I would think the charges would stick as well.
This is the essential problem with them. They don't have to obey warrant and search provisions of the constitution, they can shoot you on sight, but you have to play nice.
Not quite right.
I'm not sure I understand fully what you mean, but I'm going to give it a shot.
The question seems to be "whose law must we obey?" This is a sticky matter with a few impasses. The simple answer is that it depends on what the contract is.
When a PMC is under government contract and working alongside the military, they are subject to military law. If they do something stupid, they are prosecuted under the UCMJ and/or international law. The big problem here is that by definition, PMCs are civilian, and the public got really pissed off and whined about civilian mercs being tried under military law.
For LEA contract, they are subject to the same provisions of law enforcement, to include criminal proceedings if they overstep the boundaries. They still have to follow the rules. If it is a private contract and they do something dumb, they fall under criminal and/or civil prosecution and are subject to the same penalties. In some ways, private security is actually more regulated than law enforcement is, and we're in much deeper shit if we screw up. We get hit on all fronts, not to mention one screw up will usually blackball you.
Like I've said before, if I pulled even one drop of the crap BW has done while I was on assignment, I'd be locked away in a room and buried under concrete, and no client would ever hire me again, nor would any other agents work with me. The problem with them is that Prince has top level influence, and the corruption we are fighting against tends to cut them a break.
Explanation
BW is a licensed private security company. By definition, they are no more law enforcement than rent-a-cops. Private security has very limited powers of arrest, and only within the scope of their assigned duties which is a very thin line. During Katrina, they were deputized by law enforcement (a big mistake in my opinion). Private security and LEOs have two different manuals to follow, and they do not mix very well.
There are some contract agencies I have worked for that are law enforcement capable and very professional. On occasion if a police force is too thin to cover an area, they have the ability to contract them to help.
To further contrast, the bigger the company, the lower the quality control. BW is a monster. I have always stuck to the smaller, 12-14 man groups that train together, know each other, and know their job. The smaller groups tend to be very professional, prudent and discreet. Clients don't like huge displays or agents who cause a huge scene. It's a good way to find yourself blacklisted, sued and/or thrown in jail if you did something stupid.
Depending on who contracts them and the nature of the assignment, they can be granted authority to perform the job to which they are assigned. For example, I do dignitary protection at times. Dept. of State grants me certain authority in matters, such as permission to enter areas restricted from the public like airline tarmacs, etc.. it depends on what I am to do, but after the contract is complete, all those privileges are immediately withdrawn.
If recruited by a LEA, I can be deputized within certain guidelines, but this is a very rare occurrence. In fact, to date this has never happened to me.
During Katrina, I was in contact with the Marshals, police, and national guard. If we were in trouble, they came to help, and if they were in trouble and we were close, we came to help, but we weren't deputized.
Our sole purpose there was to render aid, protect, and by authority of law enforcement, we were given limited powers of arrest if we caught people looting pharmacies or making off with DVD players and such. Ironic in a way since we arrested a cop there who stole a big plasma screen TV. One of our patrols caught him loading it in the trunk of a squad car of all things.
Incidentally, my group has been put on alert as well in case New Orleans gets hit badly again. We've been tasked with search and rescue, possibly to escort personnel and supplies as well. All of us are SAR and medic qualified with prior experience there. Hopefully it doesn't come to that again, but we're standing by.
Who contracted Blackwater?
Will Blackwater be another terrorist organization standing in the way of "we the people". Wasn't Blackwater immunity never given in Iraq? Will they be held accountable for murder?
Some BW employees had to go to court in NO
for all sorts of violations. They had no jurisdiction at all.