Three Big Obstacles to the Movement
-One, Voter fraud, via Diebold. This year it was very obvious, and, in my opinion they not only squashed us on Election Day, they squashed Ron Paul in the primaries. I think we were cheated on a massive scale. And it's not just a Third Party issue; this disadvantage is just as bad if we try to elect a GOP president in 2012--if so, the exact same thing will happen again that happened to Ron Paul this year.
In fact, if I believed the primary elections were honest, I would join the pro-GOP chorus. The people who think we can take over the Republican Party in the next few years mean well...but they are naive. They haven't thought this through. It's a rigged game--you might as well be planning to break the bank in a Mafia-run casino playing Blackjack. They essentially make their own house rules, and they cheat at the same time.
-Two, Money. If we could bring back the Money Bomb, a new third party would have a chance. The reason the Money Bombs dwindled is that, in pragmatic terms, there was no leadership. Ron Paul effectively ended his campaign at the beginning of March--this was tangible, and the money stopped flowing in almost immediately.
Money is actually our least problematic obstacle...but without it we'll go absolutely nowhere, so it's still an important matter.
-Three, Mainstream Media. The "journalists" of our mainstream Press essentially function as gatekeepers for the New World Order. We have to make an end run around the mainstream Press.
We need a TV news network of some type in cyberspace. The only reason I suggest cyberspace is because the real TV stations cost many millions of dollars to acquire. We need to start something that runs, a la Youtube, at pennies on the dollar--but which looks professional and polished at the same time.
We have to create our own media as well as our own party. It's a big task, but we didn't see the big picture this year, and yesterday's results speak for themselves.
output
perhaps we could
we could formulate a strategy for getting third party access to the debates.
i know i am late
to the mascot debate, but how about the eagle?
To Your First Point:
I dont see why you have a problem accepting that we need to fight on within the GOP and I know what you are saying about the rigged game. That much is a given.
But its the same people within the GOP (duopoly) that have to be defeated no matter how we approach this. SO why not take them on on their own turf?
The game the way they designed it, is so that we waste all of our time and efforts just trying to gain admitance to the main event (ballot access). They did not plan on us crashing their party and then using their machinery against them from that point foreward.
If you are forced to fight someone, do it in such a way where you only have to beat them once. Its a no brainer IMO.
Use the mechanisms in place ... dont reinvent the wheel.
"I dont see why you have a
"I dont see why you have a problem accepting that we need to fight on within the GOP and I know what you are saying about the rigged game."
I've revised my view of ONLY voting Third Party. Go ahead and run GOP (or Democrat) for Congress or legislatures. It's the best approach.
But I think Third Party or Independent is the only way to penetrate the White House. It's a 10-to-1 shot, under the best conditions, but it's not a 1,000,000-to-1 shot. The primaries are corrupted.
The only exception would be if we somehow banned computer voting. If we can't do that in Congress by federal mandate, we will never win the White House in the GOP. Mark my words. Never.
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you forgot the fourth one
stupid brainwashed Americans voting all this crap in. Or not doing anything to stop it.
We are the only Obstacles
The only obstacles are ourselves, our conception of what the limits are and what we each are willing to do.
Everything else is secondary.
I'm leaning towards picking an already liberty-oriented state, moving there, and moving it even further toward liberty. For example, see Wyoming where even a crappy candidate like McCain took 65% of the vote. WY is almost solid red and in general the ethos is very Ron-Paulian.
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their are several
their are several interesting subjects being brought up on this page. If we are going to do a internet tv thing then I suggest we do what sherwood baptist did. They are the guys that made the movies flywheel, facing the giants, and fireproof. With far less money than hollywood spends they made much better pictures. We could do something like a movie on the monster from jeckal island. If it works fine we get money and attention for a time to set up internet tv news network. If not well we still have the anti fed people to buy and watch the movie so we shouldnt lose too much money on the deal.
Secondly a third party maskot should be a mouse with a sword and suit of armor. Elephants are scared of em and the sword would let it defeat the ass.
Thirdly most of our attention should for the forseable future be focused on the local level. Just so that people can get a feel for you and get your voting record straight.
I like the idea of the
I like the idea of the documentary film. That's a capital suggestion. We have talented filmmakers out there--I've been watching their Ron Paul campaign commercials all year.
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Ron Paul's message of
Ron Paul's message of freedom is what started this r3volution. Our main concentration has been the presidency. I was thinking that maybe we should concentrate our efforts on firing Congress instead. Michael's Voterbomb was a good start but never really took off. At this point I don't really care about the potential new candidates. I would vote for just about anyone rather than retaining the current members of Congress. Maybe that's a dead horse but that is just my opinion.
Selectively vote out poor congressmen
As far as I'm concerned, not everyone has to go. Just the idiots who voted for this bailout. They are true traitors or just too stupid to keep.
But what if the elected
But what if the elected official's other votes were ones that he should be fired for. One good vote out of a career of poor voting does not mean he should keep his job.
Diebold did NOT squash Ron Paul
You know, I'm as suspicious as anyone else, but we need to face reality. Ron Paul did not lose the primaries because of Diebold voting machines. He lost because hardly anyone knew who he was. This is because the media is largely controlled by Democrat supporters and the Republican representation in the media is nearly all neocon.
I don't think voter fraud has occurred systematically anywhere. In isolated pockets at isolated times, sure, I can believe that. But there is no grand conspiracy with electronic voting.
As Lew Rockwell noted, they wouldn't do this because they control both parties anyway. They don't want to undermine the impression that we have true choice in this country, when in fact both parties are identical CFR puppets.
Third Party is not a viable option. It changes nothing. We spin our wheels and pull out less than 1% of the vote. How does that help us? But if we take over the Republican Party we can have real lasting change. With all due respect, Ron Paul is smarter than you and he knows what he is doing. He has a vision and it is a good vision.
I'm unconvinced. If you
I'm unconvinced.
If you trust the power structure that much, it's small wonder that you are so gung-ho to run in the GOP.
There is no reason to trust them. There is no reason to allow those machines in polling places at all.
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If you distrust it that much
Then elections are a waste of time. If its rigged by Deibold, the only way to win is to get to a place where you do the Rigging.
So, we need people working at deibold, people on all the local election boards, etc.
Hopefully no one wiull get caught.
Diebold is not the problem
The real problem are the bankers in charge. Didn't anyone hear Ron Paul in the Alex Jones interview when he said, "Obama has been groomed for the Presidency for a long time." It's right there. They - the powers that be, the bankers the Illuminati - whatever you want to call them - THEY have the power. They place the man they want as President in that position., They fake the elections so us *sheep* think we have a say in our countries politics. We don't. Period.
You all can talk about what went wrong until you are blue in the face. But truth is - NOTHING WENT WRONG - It went just as planned.
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*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
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I agree with most of that.
And in 2010 and 2012, the bankers will still be in charge of the Republican and Democratic parties just like today. That will never change. No person or group of persons in this movement can force it to change. If you believe otherwise, you are dreaming.
But I still think they are not infallible, which is why I think we should keep trying to work with the ballot box. But we need to have good ideas first before wasting any more time.
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Well, listen
I applaude your ability to still have hope. I have none. And I have no energy or desire to try to take down the big guys. I don't think it will ever be different. Even if there was another Civil war in our country because people had enough. They (the big guys) still have all the big guns, trained assassins, tanks, nukes etc.
When it comes right down to it - we're fucked. So just get on with it, at least that's how I feel today. And I see no reason to think or feel otherwise.
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*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.
Stupid is the new sexy -- me.
www.thepurplegypsy.com
Can we actually bring the
Can we actually bring the republican party to a completely libertarian, total freedom viewpoint? Within a reasonable amount of time? It takes away any power related incentives for those at the top of the party (or we'd have constant friction from them on major, power-related issues, that get them money). Maybe a combination of working on the republican party while simultaneously building up a third party (liberty-oriented) is a good solution for changing minds over time but to eventually leave behind the republican ideology for one that is totally liberty-oriented? I can see going through the republican party being somewhat more effective in the short-term, but would it really be long lasting or make real progress in that party? Would we really be able to accomplish the big things through the republican party, that need to be accomplished? Should we focus on the republican party on national levels, but 3rd party on local levels or vice versa? It seems like there would be less barriers on the local level for third parties, but we've all witnessed the huge barriers for third parties on the national level, and probably on the state level as well.
I'm trying to figure out which what the best strategy is, and I see a lot of people suggesting using the republican party, but I haven't been convinced that's the best way yet...there's something that doesn't seem right with going that route.
Do we have a thread centered around figuring out the best strategy that doesn't compromise on the principles of liberty?
Longevity of change
Ron Paul could achieve permanent change if he does permanent things:
- permanently abolish the Fed
- permanently abolish the IRS
- permanently abolish the department of Education
- move to a gold standard that allows competing freemarket currencies
- repeal the "stupid" ammendments that allowed the IRS
- make an ammendment that severely limits government (though a gold standard would limit them quite nicely all by itself)
IRV?
What about pushing voting reform in the form of IRV? This would remove people's incentive to only vote for the lesser of two evils, and instead vote for the candidate that they feel represents them best.
Instant Runoff Voting could
Instant Runoff Voting could be a good solution. Just a few days ago, I was thinking what if the Electoral Votes are allocated according to the matchups a candidate wins. For example, if you live in a state with 20 Electoral Votes and there are 5 candidates running, there would be 10 matchups. So, each winner would get 2 Electoral Votes.
tell me the vote is not fixed
Read this and then you can understand why most of us think Diebold machines don't really count the votes.
http://blogs.sfweekly.com...
(if the link doesn't show up, it is an article about how the proposition on the ballot to name a sewage plant after George W. Bush failed by a 70% to 30% margin. thats gotta be Diebold at work.)
Kevin...
I don't know how to fit this in or which thread is appropriate, but I'd like to say to you that BJ Lawson, though he didn't win, did pretty well, all things considered. And producing 20 or 30 (or 100) candidates like him in 2010 working through the two evil parties is really a worthwhile objective. You seem to say there is no hope with the gop, and maybe you're right, but I am not convinced. I know you're set on third party, but it seems to me that the odds may be much longer taking that direction than the alternative. I know, long odds in every direction.
Although on my earlier
Although on my earlier thread "Time for a Third Party Declaration" I'm very angry with the Republican Party, I've realized a two-tier approach is needed.
We need a new party to run for EXECUTIVE POSITIONS--President, Vice President, and Governor. The two-party system will stop us every step of the way with these imperial positions, and a Third Party will do it better.
We need to stick with the GOP for LEGISLATIVE POSITIONS--House, Senate, State Legislature, and so on.
I think two-tier is the best of both worlds--the most logical approach.
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agreed
Diebold can be rejected and paper ballots instituted if there is a party takeover at the local level.
To get past the media blackout will be difficult but not impossible. Most everyone has email. If all Ron Paul supporters get a list of 100 email contacts (sheeple who need to be woke up) and guide them thru the process of awakening by providing an occasional email with pertinent links, I think it could happen.
No rudder on this ship...
Also, we need a SINGLE THIRD PARTY, not a Green, Constitution, Libertarian, too fragmented - chasing MSM scraps!!!
Combine them all and call it what the MSM has already categorized our "group" as: THE INDEPENDENT PARTY.
Our mascot should be the Bear, Lion or some ferocious animal that doesn't take crap from donkeys or elephants.
Need to be organized like the DNC, RNC and take them on! GO INC!!!
Freedom Isn't Free... Freedom costs a buck 'o five - Trey Parker
How about a bald eagle
How about a bald eagle eating a worm or a snake showing its fangs? I mean, what better symbol to link the freedom movement with than the genuine American bald eagle?
This made me laugh!
"Our mascot should be the Bear, Lion or some ferocious animal that doesn't take crap from donkeys or elephants." I totally agree an awesome mean mascot!
Hahaha!! OK, you got me. A
Hahaha!! OK, you got me. A bear could be seen as a ferocious animal for us adults but we'd also have the teddy bears for kids because they think teddy bears are cute!
I like a bear. A bear is
I like a bear. A bear is American, like a bald eagle.
A Grizzly should be our mascot..anyone agree?
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They're both American but
They're both American but selling teddy bears with our logo and slogan would be huge!
I like the bear idea. An
I like the bear idea.
An eagle looks majestic, but is a scavenger who frequently feeds by means of attacking smaller birds and stealing their food. Ospreys are frequently attacked by eagles and stripped of their fish catch.
Bears hunt their own food and they are large, powerful beasts.
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Tigers are the most
Tigers are the most ferocious predators in the mammal kingdom on dry land.
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That's what I'm saying. One
That's what I'm saying. One party--a new party. Not four other Third Parties.
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The biggest problem: There is no leadership
we were sort of hoping Ron Paul would lead us, but he didn't
now, we have no leadership..
Pretend you have a leader
and do what you think would please him.
I have to agree with you
I have to agree with you when you're right.
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Ron Paul is pro-life. Know what I mean?
..
And?
What do you mean?
Vote Fraud
I'm totally certain there was vote fraud in SD for the presidential race.
Baldwin SUPPOSEDLY got only 1,895 votes in the WHOLE STATE.
Compare that the the PUC candidate on the Constitution Party ticket, who got 12,060 votes.
See it here for yourself: http://electionresults.sd...
What's bewildering me though is that we use paper ballots in this state. How the hell do they do it?!
paper ballots can be switched
Paper ballots can be switched. Optical scanners can be gamed.
Paper ballots are not a guaranteed prevention of vote fraud. There has to be an auditing mechanism in place.
I would prefer the self auditing voting system which I've written about here but haven't gotten much response to so I won't bore you with the details again.
Does everyone use a paper ballot?
Because my experience from a few minutes of precinct watching is that the vast majority of rural Americans use touchscreen machines. When I voted, 9 out of 10 were using Diebold.
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(No subject)
honestly, I think we need to
honestly, I think we need to forget the 3rd party idea.... it makes no sense to throw all our eggs in one basket, especially one as fragile as 3rd parties.
With democrats in full control now, it will be easiest for us to work through the Republican party, where there will be resentment to democrat rule that we can energize to support our candidacies.
I'm not actually suggesting
I'm not actually suggesting putting all your eggs in one basket. I am suggesting putting all the Third Party eggs into a new basket, for the run for President. The existing Third Parties are flawed.
If you choose GOP, you aren't my enemy. The GOP power structure is my enemy.
The logical base for invading the Congress and state legislatures is the Republican Party.
But the Presidency is permanently closed to us where they are concerned, and I hated the national GOP before it screwed us all and treated Ron Paul like garbage.
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Agree with all but
we also must analyze ourselves. We need to cultivate a positive, not defeatist, attitude first and foremost.
You couldn't be more right.
You couldn't be more right.
There's too much paranoia--too much negativity.
Politics is salesmanship. It isn't a "fight". It's a sale.
The person who wins over the most hearts and minds wins the match.
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I completely agree.
I completely agree! I study graphic design and I'm taking this course on marketing; I'm doing well mainly thanks to what I've learned for the last 2 years from Dr. Paul and the movement itself. Candidates are basically products that wait for the approval of the consumers, which in this case are the voters. So, if a voter is satisfied with a candidate, the voter is going to want to have more of that candidate. Good old supply and demand!
Bravo!
Establish a common and popular set of principles, raise funds, promote and educate. It is absurd to thing we just throw a candidate out there that will win under current conditions. The grass roots needs to expand into schools, fundraisers, local events, etc. etc. We have an idea and now we need a plan to plant in in the mind of every American clinging to tyranny.
I feel three is the most
I feel that number three is the most important, and cyberspace alone isn't going to cut it, not even put a dent in it. The people who need to be awakened are not spending time in cyberspace, that is, the baby boomers, average Joe's, trailer park dwellers, Walmart shoppers and such. If it ain't on "TV" they don't even know it exists. Somehow we need to overcome the mass media monopoly, and frankly, I no longer think it can be done. Sheep can only follow what they are deluged with. O-BAAAAH-MA O-BAAAAAH-MA
Preaching to the quire is never going to get us anywhere!