What are the good arguments for not bailing out the auto companies?

I have thought long and hard about this and researched it myself and this is what i believe : pros to be as follows : save jobs down the ladder as well as at the top , maybe something good could come out of it with the government at the front door. here are the cons in my eyes : yes it would save a few jobs but many will be laid off anyways if you refer to when chrysler was bailed out before , also why do for some co. and not all , why should the government step in and save these ceo who screwed up but nothing is saving the little guy small business owners , i think that when joe blow screws up joe blow has to fix it but if you are a big co that screws up its ok you'll be saved. thats wrong the government doesn't help me when i screw up. these workers are paid great wages more than i ever see , co. paid health care which i don't have , it cost them 0.00 . let them file bankruptcy like other people , fire the idiots who screwed up and let the workers come and have to live like normal people that pay for our insurance , get fired if we screw up , etc. then they will be thanking god as i do for the good things in our lives. government doesn't belong in this fight . the old people who don ' t have meds or food that worked hard all there life,served there country , and now are old and not able to make ends meet so they get stuck in abusive nursing homes and discarded like a dirty rag thats what government should be involved in.
Car Glass Repair

The 700 billion has passed. That money will not affect me the way it has passed. I did not commit to the purchase of a home I cannot afford. I am 100% against this bailout, and a believer in the free market. However, I am a Detroiter, the strong majority of my family and friends and everyone around me is tied into the Auto Industry. If the vote passes, at least 25 of that 700 billion will affect the community I live in. I am not thinking about the execs, ceo's and middle management. I am thinking about the men that work the line, the engineers, the ones that cling to American working class pride and ingenuity. Our elected officials will not stick the the constitution and free market principles, they already voted on the bailout, a letter to Levin will do nothing. I support a measure to take some of that money from the banks to ensure my neighborhood, and blue collar America benefits from that vote.
-Mr. Geralds

According to DownsizeDC.org 's Downsizer Dispatch, the UAW has them locked into paying workers not to work. Apparently, they are obligated to continue paying people even when the economic situation says they need to cut back.

I think, if they went into Chapter 11 bankruptcy, the court could get them out of such contracts and they could afford to restructure and resume business. (Big government begets big business begets big labor and big special interest lobbies. They're all about to topple and the smaller, quicker folks better be ready to move.)

If they don't restructure and get competitive, they'll go under and all our cars will be imports or made by foreign car-makers in South Carolina or elsewhere.

US automakers are like brick houses on an earthquake fault. Congress can try to step in and make the walls thicker, but it won't help prevent the Big One.

They need to slim down and become more flexible in order to move with the market.

If I have to pay them bailout money, I want them to put a brand new car in my driveway, not sit there waiting for the market to stop moving!

IMissLiberty
Voting for the Lesser Evil? http://www.inductionworks...

These bailouts have nothing to do with strengthening the dollar. Look at your recent history guys and you can see a pretty clear pattern here. To think that these guys are doing these bailouts and all this nonsense to strengthen the economy and help we the people somehow is absolutly rediculous. They keep coming up with these rediculous ideas to bring back the economy and then when they fail horribly as they obviously are going to do you see all these guys like benanke and paulson sitting there going. Oops! Well we just didnt know that this or that was going to happen. Now usually when I post in any political forum there is some statement of anger within those posts because of what Im talking about right here. But in this post I would really like for you guys to think about what Im saying and then do your research. These men are not making mistakes. These guys are some of the smartest guys on the planet despite thier obvious void of morality. They act like they are trying so hard to help the dollar and they just keep making mistakes. Oops! Sorry america. No. I dont think so. In 2005 bush signed the NAU documents. This is what they want because when you break down the 170 countries on this planet into 4 unions all of the sudden its a whole lot easier to rule the entire world from one seat because now your not trying to govern 170 seperate countries but 4. Now what is the fastest way to bring down a country? Bring down its money. These men are intentionally trying to destroy the currency in this country so that they can change the money here to either the Amero or god forbid put all the money on microchips that they can stick under your skin and that way if you oppose them in any way they just turn off your chip and your done. You cant buy food, medicine or pay your bills. When that happens then it really doesnt matter what you think. They have control over every single living person on this planet and if you control the people, you control the world.

I recently had a conversation with someone about gun control and this argument is the definition of my anger with people in this country right now. I was saying that perhaps it would be best to hide his guns so that when the time comes and they come knocking on your dooor, and make no mistake people, that time is coming, then you can simply say you sold your guns or whatever you need to say so that you still have a way to defend yourself. What he said to me really struck me as the general ignorance of people in this country today. He said " What do you think will happen if they come try to take everyones guns? The people will revolt and fight back!" My response was " Look around you. If people are going to rise up and fight back when the government tries to take away thier rights then why didnt they rise up and fight back when they took away your privacy? Why dont they rise up and fight back when they try to openly destroy your currency or when they decided that 50% of your income was a reasonable tax?" No I dont think they will fight back at all. And by they time anyone acctually does decide to stand up and kick these bastards out of office our money will be gone, our guns will be gone and our freedom will be gone and that means America will be gone. So what are we going to do then? Rise up and be martyrs? No thank you. Not for me.

My point here is that to think these men are making mistakes is nieve. They are doing eveything they are doing for a specific agenda and they will not stop until you stop them or they enslave you. No one is going to ride in on a white horse and save us. If your looking towards Dr. Paul or anyone else to come be the hero and fight for you then your looking in the wrong direction. YOU are the hero. It is YOUR duty to do something about all this. Because if you dont do it. No one will. Now I see people all over the country trying to fight back through peacefull assembly. Groups like C.H.A.N.G.E. and such are waving signs all over the place. But now they are even taking away your right to assemble. Look at Adam Kokesh. This man was in Iraq and came back and told the truth of what he saw there and now he is going through court date after court date having to defend himself for telling the truth. How far will we let them go? Are we going to wait until they start dropping bombs on us before we do something? As I said months ago. The peacefull assembly isnt working. They simply arrest you. So my question is when? how much is enough? How far will we let them go before we acctually DO something about this. Im waiting for you America. I have been for some time. I pray god you are still there.

and truth is GM is going to fail no matter what. The companies liabilities are growing a pace that is much faster then any hopes for revenue growth. For ever worker GM has today they are paying pensions and health care for 2.5 retired workers and that number is just going to go up. Simple economics is that you can not spend more then you make and survive. GM could cut spending with layoffs and downsizing so that the size of its company is in accordance with its needs of production based on demands for its products and use profits to develop new products that have a greater demand. A company should only be as big as the market demands and needs the ability to react to the market. The problem with GM and other US auto makers is that they have liabilities unrelated to the free market. They have to pay 2.5 people not working before they get around to paying 1 person that dose. GM's oldest retiree will be 110 years old this year. The employee worked for GM for 32 years and has been collecting pension and health benefits for 47 years. Some of these problems are the same problems America itself is looking at when they look at Social Security and health care. GM and the US Government promised a benefit when they thought people were going to die at 67 and business and government plans are a mess because people lived longer. If you look at what GM wants 50% of the bailout will go to just benefits programs just for this year. I am sure they will be back next year asking for more. The sad fact is that big business and big government are going to crash because we have been for too long based on the idea that we should give up control of our lives to the people at the top. Lets not worry. Spend your money now because when you retire you will be taken care of. That spending of the money dose grow the economy when the young spenders greatly out number the retired and the retired will die off fast, but when they out number us 2.5 to 1 and health care cost have gone up so much we are Fu@ked and so is GM.

they basically left America hanging on the clothes line..and before it is all over with...gonna leave their employees hanging out too..i feel like it was their doings....bail them out and they'll fail again

Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master... George Washington

1. It is not the proper function of government.
2. If it WAS the proper role of government we should only do it if we can responsibly afford it. We can't.
3. We can't even irresponsibly afford it! (If we had $85 bucks in the bank and had to fund $75 bucks worth of stuff for the upsoming year and the bailout would cost $10 bucks... we should not responsibly do a bailout. Our situationis that we have $0 in the bank, $11,235 bucks promised to folks for other purchases we have made over the years, expected expenses this year of $759 bucks and the bailout would cost $50 bucks! Sorry, no can do!

How about this for a good argument? 9 out of 10 Americans didnt want the first bailout. That bailout was an obvious failure so I doubt they will want this bailout either. While we are trying to decide a good argument against another bailout it seems that everyone is forgetting that none of the AMERICAN CITIZENS want any damn bailout and that is argument enough. Maybe if the cowards and traitors in the house start doing what we tell them to do, which everyone seems to keep forgetting is thier DUTY we wont have to come up with any damn argument. There is no good argument. There is only the truth. Wake up America before they put you to sleep for good. Or sit there until they knock on your door. Like it or not, those are your options.

E

Ron Gettlefinger, President of the UAW, says the UAW shouldn't have to renegotiate contracts in order to get a bailout and was opposed to the merger between GM and Chrysler as it would eliminate too many UAW jobs.....um that's the problem. These companies are still sized for a different era in which they had higher market share. They need to shrink further in size than they have thus far even though they have taken measures to that end already. Until the legacy costs per unit mirror those of the foreign automakers, a bailout won't help and the 3 won't be able to survive. The UAW wants its pensions funded by the US taxpayer now. If they arrange a bailout to do that, I sure hope they fund everyone's 401K too since they have lost tons of money also.

"An auto industry bail-out will fail"
www.guardian.co.uk/commen...

Geeze where do I start. DUH!

!"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." --Andrew Jackson,
1828

we bail out companies who refuse, due to business reasons...wink wink..to sell efficient cars here while they sell them in Europe and abroad? Not only that but it was all over the news the other day that GM was opening manufacturing facilities in Russia.... I say effem..let them become a European company and let new car companies that will make efficient/electric/hydrogen/etc...cars take their place.

Die GM!

jzneff is wrong again. Read this article which states that the bailout of the auto industry will most likely not occur because the votes aren't there! Thank GOD!

http://blogs.abcnews.com/...

We're bankrupt? Uh, we'd have to print the money? Uh, it's unconstitutional? Uh, it's just plain stupid?

How do those work?

WE CANT AFFORD IT

Freedom is another way to God...A corrupt government is a straight way to hell.

what happens when companies cannot compete with other *better companies? They go broke, and go out of business.
Have you taken a look at GM cars lately? They are complete garbage. No wonder they are bankrupt. US automaker's quality has gone to shit in the past 20 years, and they haven't come up with new innovations. Toyota dominates for a reason

The void left by the demise of Ford & GM would cause a dozen start-up car companies with new ideas and new designs to finally see the light of day. The failure of the big auto makers does not mean we will no longer make cars just like the failure of a dairy farm wouldn't mean we would stop drinking milk.

There is no such thing as 'too big to fail'. There is only 'too weak to keep alive'.

I may not know the truth, but I know when I'm being lied to...

Time to move on.These mammoths have become a huge liability. Over the last 20 years they made their money not by selling a good product,but mostly by selling gimmicks,financial trickery and maneuvering their tax dues.

Private company, forward-thinking, pure genius = no government intervention/regulations/subsidies, ergo no fat cat CEO's with political ties. No running to big Gov with their hands out:

"MANCHESTER – The same day that Ford and General Motors announced catastrophic third-quarter losses, Dean Kamen was showing off his new electric car..."
More in the Union Leader: http://tinyurl.com/6ck66y

"Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.

Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky decision making."

1) They are bloated over sized behemoths that has lived off the public (in many countries) allowing them to maintain dominance for years

2) They are asking for multiple years worth of sales in their bailouts between Canada and US governments

3) These sloth based unionist jobs need to be purged from our society - people do not deserve to be payed $40/hr to push a button

4) This intervention once again limits competition and future technological progression

5) Not taxing our Grand Children for a poorly run (formerly the world largest) multinational corporations

6) Not supporting companies that invented "planned obselesence" and then gets upset when people can't afford to buy a new vehicle every 4 years

7) Not support the military industrial complex

8) How many billions have been given in years past - will they ever stop asking?

8)These companies are not financial institutions (although some subsiduaries are) as is expressly written in the "bailout bill"

9) The people of the US can build a better company - with their own money and benefit from it as opposed to Government suggest that there might be a ROI

10) Nobody ever seems to get fired from these firm that get money. Shouldn't someone get fired for having lost so much money that they have to go begging to Government

Shall I continue??? 8]

www.umake.it - The online forum where people help people live within their means

Other, more sound, more prudent, leaner, meaner entities will buy the productive assets and we will have a more efficient economy. Propping up a dead horse is a terrible waste of resources.
_________________________________

My liberty-minded home base of thought:

www.ponderthis.net

GM should go bankrupt because it will allow them to re-negotiate their union contracts and *that* is the real reason GM is failing. They pay par too much in past pension and labor costs.

Several of the Casio's in Las Vegas are going bankrupt too and they actually do more business than GM, should we also bail them out too? No nobody would ever think of bailing them out.. but somehow GM is diffrent? Why?

GM and the other auto manufactures can't even take advantage of good technology when they find it. They are trying to suppress information about a American SUV that gets 150 MPG, made by AFS Trinity in Washington State.

http://www.matternetwork....

"The suppression by the automakers of information about technologies such as this raises serious questions about the judgment, vision, intentions and capabilities of the leadership of these companies," said Edward W. Furia, Chairman and CEO of AFS Trinity, in a press release.

I mean if they can't pull their head out of their ass and take advantage of that then let them tank, it will be better for everyone in the end anyhow.

How many of us have been fucked by car companies and their finance companies?? Bought a car that was never right? Had a car repossessed? Had your loan amount changed before you signed final loan app? Been lied to by shady salesmen??

Let them bleed I say. Put the money to good use bailing out American farmers who are going under.

************************************
*Bah* I'm too tired to be witty.

Stupid is the new sexy -- me.

www.thepurplegypsy.com

it would make more sense to bail out Hyundai if it came to that because Hyundai will create more jobs in America because of it.

It's not a reason, but it chips at the mortar of the brick wall you are talking to when a person's reasons for wanting the bailout include the impression that GM is somehow related to our patriotic identity.

Edit: I'm not sure it would be accurate for me to imply that the patriotic identity issue is nothing more than an impression, but my intention is to refocus the argument on what actions will or will not accomplish for Americans, not just abstract concepts like identity.

Fortune Favors the Bold

we don't really need more cars. There are too many cars as it is.

GM will still fail with money from the bailout. Why? Because no one is going to plop down cash for those cars. Nor can most get financing now. So either way they will fall.

You aren't going to convince this country that we should let GM fail. Sorry, but you're talking to a brick wall here.

They will bail out GM, count on it.

my head, and the proceeding to scramble up my brains with a stick?

I'm sorry I couldn't help it, I have been trying to not say that since I first read this thread.

I see where your coming from though, you want to have an argument to convince folks that just don't know any better. The vast number of Americans see nothing wrong with any of this in the end, as long as they "get theirs". I would go back in history and explain to the person that this is not what we are supposed to be about. That through government and the feds intervention into the economy and private lives of the citizens, that they caused this mess. And a large part of me thinks it was done on purpose, to open us up to even more intervention and confiscation.

I would bring up that we all have the natural right to succeed in business or to fail miserably. And, if we pawn off our failures onto others that infringes upon their natural rights. Just because one person or group fails that does not make it right to require all other people or groups to fall down the ladder to the failures level. Just as when a person or group is successful, all the ones that didn't do anything to contribute have no right to that success.

Thank you Dr. Paul for making me act on what I already knew was right.

Strategically, from a pro individual liberty point of view, one nice side effect of letting the Big3 fail, is that it would dramatically weaken the stranglehold big labor and big corporations have on lake state electorates.

With all these, often highly qualified, workers needing to find jobs, they would soon realize rigid labor laws created to perpetuate the 'big business negotiating with big labor over your salary and benefits' model is not exactly luring in employers, nor is it making it easier to start up on your own.

That comes in addition to all the economic, moral and philosophical reasons posted by others, of course.

- GM is the biggest car-maker in the world. If it isn't profitable, it's time to tighten the belt, not ask for free money from Americans. (cut back operations)
- When companies that are losing money go out of business, their assets are sold to companies that are making money. So cars keep getting built, just under new management. In effect, you are replacing incompetent management that loses money with good management that knows how to make money.
- Rewarding failure with free money doesn't make sense.
- The fact is, in a true free market I don't think you would have these massive behemoths. You would have lots of smaller companies making cars, so losing one here and one there does not devastate a country. But the government has encouraged these monsters and it is painful to lose such a massive company. Maybe the assets will go to form many smaller car companies (one specializing in trucks, one in compacts, one with electric cars, etc..) which sets things up for a better future.

A call for deregulation can go along with this topic, because regulations make it very hard for companies (especially new ones) to operate. Notice the USA hasn't had a new car company for like a century?

we don't have the money.

One reason is who can afford to buy a new car on credit? the car lots here in NC are full and they are not selling many cars, if any, so why build more cars, and I feel we should not bail out any company, including banks, Wall Street, like one of the posters said, "Who is next, the farmers". As Dr. Paul says, let the markets correct themselves, and if they need to declare they are bankrupt, then they can rebuild and hopefully make better decisions the next time around.