Gold coin question......
Posted November 20th, 2008 by JBPT
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Does anyone KNOW FOR CERTAIN, (please don't reply if you're not positive), if those $10 First Spouse gold coins are treated like bullion coins or say old gold currency or commemoratives in terms of them being subject to confiscation? (The latter two only being confiscatable via a change to the constitution.) Thanks fellow DPers.
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I would recommend buying
I would recommend buying Silver. Midas is a good place to get gold or silver. What Ted Andeson sells he has in stock. Walking Liberty half dollars are $8.50. Lowet price I've seen.
Anyone that would let their Gold or Silver be confiscated dosen't need to be buying it. That goes for your guns also.
"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out. If the people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system, there would be a revolution before morning." --Andrew Jackson,
1828
$6 Walking Liberty halves
APMEX has Walking Liberty halves in $100 face value bags for $5.78 a coin and $10 face rolls for $6 a coin right now (evening of Nov 20). Even that is a pretty hefty premium over spot. Hold on while I calculate it.... That's 68% over the spot melt value. I've seen worse.
Edit. Oops. It's 75%. I was thinking the spot price was around 10. But it's close to 9 right now.
Thanks, those Walking
Thanks, those Walking Liberties are generally in rough shape. Personally I'm not fond of buying coins only for their precious metal value. I think it's wise to buy coins that also have some numismatic value. Otherwise your coins are tied strictly to the price of the metal.
I'm starting to think that a
I'm starting to think that a precious metals confiscation is less likely and a confiscation of retirement programs is more likely, simply because the retirement accounts are all computerized. It would be easier and more effective for the gov to confiscate all retirement accounts, putting them in the hands of the social security administration and converting all holdings within those accounts to 30yr government bonds. As far as I know, Congress has (and possibly continues to) discussed this.
confiscation
The fear of confiscation is a sales pitch used by coin dealers who want to sell coins with a high premium. The Constitution doesn't give authority for ANY kind of gold confiscation. But it doesn't matter because the government does whatever it wants now. It needs no Constitutional authority for any kind of confiscation it deems desirable. It can confiscate your gold, your silver, your house, your car, and make you perform National Service. So forget the idea that some forms of gold are non-confiscatable. It's bull and I wouldn't trust anyone who uses it as a sales pitch.
Spouse Coin Status
The 1st Spouse $10 coins are struck as a collector commemorative coin and not bullion. Hence, not subject to PEO 6102 signed by FDR. As a collector type commemorative, they would be protected under Eminent Domain and the 5th amendment.
Thanks MW, but what's
Thanks MW, but what's confusing is some online dealers have these coins listed under both "bullion" and "commemoratives."
Don't worry about it,
The coins have a numismatic grade assigned to them of MS70, meaning proof or perfect, when they are inspected after being struck. This is of particular value to collectors on the coin market. If it were bullion, they wouldn't give a damn about the coin's condition- just the weight and purity.
The confusion lies in the fact that they also have a purity rating and weight on the reverse side. This is typical with these types of coins, and the purity rating and weight only aids in certification of the metal in this case.
Bullion is misunderstood by most people in that the term refers to a precious metal, weighted and measured, that is to be used in practical trade or exchange based on current market value. These coins are struck as commemorative, meaning they were not meant to be used as bullion, but as a collector piece.
In the end, it doesn't matter. If you're really worried about Caesar coming along and taking them, just buy them quietly, stash them away safe, and keep your mouth shut about them. :)
Thank you. It's worth
Thank you. It's worth noting some dealers do sell certified gold and silver eagles. (Usually by NGC or PCGS.)
There are no current laws
There are no current laws that protect some kinds of gold from confiscation but not others. If some coin dealer told you otherwise, do not do business with him. There's nothing in the Constitution that gives the government the authority to confiscate any gold at all, but that didn't stop FDR. If it comes to it, they'll take the gold fillings out of your teeth if you let them. But I don't think they'll bother with gold. They'll go after the 401(K)'s and IRA's next.
Jive, always enjoyed your
Jive, always enjoyed your videos.
The coin dealer which made this distinction was Midas Resources. Certainly not a fly-by-night outfit.
I just found this at it's sort of what I'm getting at. Just read the first 2 paragraphs:
http://www.blanchardonlin...
This goes into greater detail:
http://cmi-gold-silver.co...
What makes you think it's
What makes you think it's not a fly-by-night outfit? I don't know anything about them beyond what you've told me, but personally, I would not call them back. No way.
I know a distinguished gentleman named Burton Blumert. He was a gold dealer for 50 years, and is a close friend of Ron Paul's. He'll tell you everything you need to know. Listen here: http://www.lewrockwell.co...
P.s. FDR gave just compensation for the confiscated gold, namely, $20 and change in Federal Reserve Notes. If you asked, "What's that?" they said, "Oh, that's just compensation."
Midas Resources is owned by
Midas Resources is owned by Ted Anderson who is also the owner of the Genesis Communications Network. (The network AJ is on.)
I am not familiar with them
I am not familiar with them either. Suffice it to say, I disagree strongly with their confiscation argument.
I just look for the best prices I can find on bullion and junk silver from places that have a long track record of honesty. I have not been buying recently, but I notice that small coins are coming back into the market after having been pretty much sold out. APMEX has US 90% silver quarters and halves, and various 1oz gold and silver bullion coins. That's not an endorsement of APMEX. Just saying.
Did you listen to the interview with Burt Blumert? http://www.lewrockwell.co...
I'll check out the
I'll check out the interview. Thanks. If you haven't checked out that CMI link I posted above please do so. That's what I was getting at.
Also note this info was given to me by one rep. There may be varying views on this topic within the company.
The only confiscation you
The only confiscation you will ever experience as pertains to gold coins, is the one done by certain 'collectible coin' dealers, who mark their stuff up way beyond the spot price of gold, based on some fairytale about the government confiscating bullion coins.
If you buy gold reasonably close in price to spot, even if some government entity wanted to confiscate your bullion, just melt it down.
Paying way over spot, just so some fear mongering broker / salesman can cash a nice commission check, has got to be about the biggest 'investment' scam ever perpetrated on uninformed metals buyers.
I'm curious stuki, what do
I'm curious stuki, what do you consider "way beyond the spot price."
Just melt it down? What with?
For small orders of bullion
For small orders of bullion coin, 10-15% over 'spot' price, including all charges. For bigger orders, at most 10%, preferably less.
amark.com has easy to track prices, both spot and for the most common coins. The Panda for some reason always seems to be the cheapest, but as long as gold is gold and an ounce is an ounce, the 'nicer coin' spread is bound to shrink if the economy really starts taking a beating.
I have no relation to amark, and have no idea if they are the cheapest out there. Most likely, if you shop around, some dealer is bound to give you better prices, hoping to switch you into higher markup 'collectible' or somesuch coins later on.
I wonder how much Ron Paul supporters would need to buy every month in order to maintain access to buy at 'spot', which I believe to be futures for delivery next month. If Paulville ever materializes, a mint and a metals brokerage ought to be two of the first employers in town :).
Oh, and melting down is figuratively. You'd need a furnace. But you can cut the coins up in pieces and and beat and press the pieces into shapes unrecognizable as bullion coin. I don't know why you'd want to, but if for some reason the government starts going house to house confiscating bullion; and people for some inexplicable reason still don't realize time has come to start wantonly shooting all government employees on sight; gold is soft enough for this to be imminently practical.
The markup on spot price
Is a direct reflection on the fact that the spot markets are being manipulated by government investors placing shorts on the spot market. The commission added onto the spot reflects the difficulty in actually obtaining the gold. Basically when COMEX gets busted, the spot prices will resume their normal value and commissions will return to normal ranges reflecting the ease of obtaining real gold.
I can tell we have a
I can tell we have a different philosophy when it comes to coins.
Personally I don't think it's wise only to buy coins for their precious metal content. (Which describes current bullion coins.) Their value is tied exclusively to the price of the metal. However a numismatic coin would have value for both the metal and collectibility.
That's just my take.
Before buying one of those
Before buying one of those numismatic coins from a dealer, I'd recommend getting a price quote, and then calling another dealer saying you inherited the exact same coin and want to sell. Ask them what they'll give you for it. If that market is anything at all like other 'collectible' markets, you'll take quite a haircut.
Also, buying for collectibility instead of pure metals prices only make sense if the 'collectibility' premium increases faster over time than the metal price. Otherwise you'd benefit more from getting more metal for the same money.
Now, if you look at any market for collectibles, whether paintings or old cars, they tend to boom in good times and bust in bad. So if you are buying gold as a hedge against bad times, it makes little sense to pay for exposure to collectibility. Do you really think a big collectible premium will exist on some of these coins in a Mad Max scenario? Or even a great depression one? Will people on the verge of starving to death really care about a coin's supposed 'mint state'?
The way I see it, even disregarding the excessive dealer markups endemic to any market with no available third party 'spot' price; spending one's money on collectibility instead of base metal is like preparing for the a nasty recession by going out and buying a stamp collection.
"Before buying one of those
"Before buying one of those numismatic coins from a dealer, I'd recommend getting a price quote, and then calling another dealer saying you inherited the exact same coin and want to sell. Ask them what they'll give you for it. If that market is anything at all like other 'collectible' markets, you'll take quite a haircut."
No offense but that's a poor example. One can't expect to go to a reseller and expect to be offered a price close to full NGC, PCGS, etc. value for a coin. However if sold to another end user that is far more possible. (See ebay for examples of this.)
This is no different than trading in a car. People receive a wholesale number on their trade because the car must be resold at retail. If one wants a retail price they should sell it privately.
Also, there are deals to be had in collectibles if purchased right. I've noticed some dealers sell slabbed coins anywhere from 20-50% BELOW their graded value. This is a real deal if you elect to turn around and sell the coin. (And is still a deal if you hold on to it.)
"Also, buying for collectibility instead of pure metals prices only make sense if the 'collectibility' premium increases faster over time than the metal price. Otherwise you'd benefit more from getting more metal for the same money."
The last sentence is true but that's something I personally can live with. Also, that would also only add to the value of a graded coin. So it's not a terrible situation even if the price of the metal soars. I've seen people post on this site how they're taking a beating with gold and silver dropping in recent months because they presumably bought junk coins or bullion coins.
"Now, if you look at any market for collectibles, whether paintings or old cars, they tend to boom in good times and bust in bad. So if you are buying gold as a hedge against bad times, it makes little sense to pay for exposure to collectibility. Do you really think a big collectible premium will exist on some of these coins in a Mad Max scenario? Or even a great depression one? Will people on the verge of starving to death really care about a coin's supposed 'mint state'?"
To the last question we don't know. A big collectible premium probably wouldn't exist if things go Mad Max but I don't find the premiums are that much more for a common coin in MS-60 or better condition. One to two bucks maybe. Check out the Peace Dollars here:
http://www.apmex.com/Cate...
In the end it's likely good to have a mix of both but it seems many people are only buying for metal content. Again, if one can live with the possible consequences of that decision then great. If they can't then spend a little more for a BU roll of whatever or some slabbed coins in MS or PR-62 condition or better.
Oh, one more thing.... There
Oh, one more thing....
There is one thing in favor of rare coins, as long as they are 'really rare', as in auction grade $100,000+ pieces sought after by hard core collectors. And that is they can be a way to smuggle large sums of money out of a country under its government's nose. A $5mill coin in your wallet is a lot easier to get past customs than the equivalent in gold bars. Diamonds are also great for this purpose, as certain UBS bankers seem to have discovered.
But for the coins that some of the dealers out there call 'rare', this is irrelevant, as they are not really 'rare' in any meaningful way.
When FDR stole our gold...
He didn't make much distinction as to what form it was in. Coins, whether privately minted or government minted were seized. When you buy gold, do it anonymously, take physical delivery, and be prepared to hide it.
-jcr
It's my understanding
It's my understanding non-bullion gold is less confiscatable because that would require an amendment to the constitution. Confiscating bullion doesn't. That comes from a rep at Midas Resources. I'm unsure what category the first spouse coins fall into.
BS
The "rep" is full of "crep."
Self-bump!
Self-bump!