Atheists, agnostics part of our individuality

Posted June 1st, 2009 by xntryk1

May 29, 2009

Atheists, agnostics part of our individuality
By Saritha Prabhu, sprabhu@charter.net

A while back, I learned something that surprised me: Atheists and agnostics are a reviled group in this country.

The survey said that they are disliked more than even gays and Muslims. Are they despised more than illegal immigrants? The survey didn't say.

I also learned that in six states, atheists can't run for any public office.

Actually, this is probably not all that surprising. The United States is the most religious country in the industrialized West, and it stands to reason that people who question or negate the existence of God are not favored citizens.

It could also be that we are conditioned from a young age to believe in God, to attend a place of worship, to believe that all morality flows from religion. Hence, we tend to believe that people who don't do the above are immoral, bohemian types, or at least those who cause discomfort to our entrenched beliefs.

The reality may be otherwise. I've known a few atheists and agnostics over the years, and in my view they display an important American trait: that of rugged individualism in their thinking. They are also some of the most moral people I've known.

It isn't hard to understand some of their logic: They contend that organized religion is a man-made creation designed primarily to teach us morality, or as Bill Maher crudely put it, "To keep you in line."

They think they can be perfectly moral without being bound by religious trappings, thank you very much.

You also find that their morality can often have a purer motivation.

They are moral for its own sake, and not — as in the case of some religious followers — because God or a holy book told them, or because of fear of the afterlife.

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I'd rather have an Atheist

On June 20th, 2009 netzorro says:

I'd rather have an Atheist who went by the letter of the Constitution than a Christian who didn't for President.

does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds”
-Sam Adams

Do most athiests and agnostics believe in consciousness?

On June 18th, 2009 Bob-45 says:

Or, do you believe all thoughts, actions and behaviors are simply the result of electrochemical reactions?

You don't have to like God to believe in him.

Budhists are atheists, so yes, I would say

On June 20th, 2009 The Granger says:

To me, God is that which is beyond man's ability to reason. If it doesn't make sense, or it's too big, blame God, or praise God,

I've seen many miracles. I met a man who shot himself with a rifle, not once, but twice, in the mouth, and he lives is one example.

I witnessed a bad accident where a small boy was accidentally killed by a yound man who has just returned from a two year LDS mission in Japan. I told the younf man, it was not his fault. It was the fault of the child, the courts rendered it, "An act of God". It was not an act of God. It was an accident. The boy did not see the jeep the boy was driving at 35 mph and he ran right into it when he thought he could reach the other side of the raod by beating a slow moving truck. The boy did not see the jeep behind the truck. The whole neighborhoos turned out to try to get the speed reduced in the area, so in a way, this boy's acidental death became a political issue. No one whould have wanted the speed limit changed if it were not for thie "Act of God". Where is the conscienous in that? It's usery and of the worst kind.

I count my blessings. Does this mean I accept God as a creator? No. It means that I am limited to express what I experience with the vocabulary I have and others can understand... blessing, gifts, but that can be talent, blessings is easier said and understood than, "I count my gifts and talents". Just doesn't mean the same.

The closest philosphy for me is objectivism and the closest religionious thought is Thomas Aquainas.

Thank you for speaking out on this important subject.

On June 17th, 2009 Anisha says:

I spent many, many years imagining myself as an 'Atheist'. Because I was very conscious of this choice at the time. I was very careful at examining my thoughts and if I did do something that caused harm in any way, I really looked at that until I truly realized what I had done to another and corrected it and made amends.

I certainly don't wish to impose my own private path upon anyone. I do recognize the importance of ones very own original process. I found this to be true as an Artist/Potter as well. Same process.

One really has to find their very own voice and get a sense of what is true for themselves, otherwise, quite frankly, it really is someone else's programming that you are walking around with.

It doesn't matter.

On June 12th, 2009 zenpiper says:

People are pretty set in their beliefs, usually by the time they get to be adults.

Whatever you believe, if you are happy, that is where the discussion ends. If you are not happy, then find something that makes you so.

A person can believe whatever they like. But it is how they treat others that matters most. Kindness, compassion, helpfulness - are not the property of any religion or belief system. If you are a good person and treat others with fairness and kindness, it doesn't matter what your faith or non-faith happens to be.

Zenpiper: Hear Hear

On June 13th, 2009 OctoBox says:

Octobox

I like this article,

On June 7th, 2009 Ruth says:

but it's inaccurate in that it claims in six states atheists can't run for public office. Those states have antiquated laws on their books, but those laws are negated by an old Supreme Court ruling. There's no state in which an atheist can't run for public office. So, atheists, how about stepping up and doing that?

It Is Impossible to Be Moral Without God

On June 7th, 2009 Theonomist says:

Without an absolute standard for where morality comes from and what it is, morality becomes relative and arbitrary. For the "atheist," morals are only subjected based on what the electrochemical processes in their brains tell them is moral. Since we all don't have the same brains, then that means there are no moral laws to judge whether one person is being moral in contrast to someone else. What's moral to Obama compared to Dr. Paul is only what their electrochemical processes tell them, for instance.

So, then how can an "atheist" call someone like a Christian "immoral" if the Christian is only doing what the electrochemical processes in his brain allow him to do? It would be silly for the "atheist" to tell the Christian what he ought to be doing because an "ought" assumes a universal moral law, which the "atheist" rejects philosophically by his own worldview.

Also, morals themselves are not material entities because they are not made of matter. Morals are conceptual in nature, and as such, they are immaterial entities not subject to purely empirical methods of validity. Yet, "atheists" say that only material objects are what we can observe as real and true, but they all the while appeal to immaterial concepts like morals to make judgments against people of theistic faith. They are being inconsistent once again in their worldview.

What is a religious Bigot?

On June 11th, 2009 MMJ Ministry says:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q...
----------------
Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
`Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life'- Aristophanes -

Are you saying that before...

On June 8th, 2009 atrickpay says:

Christianity came into being about 3000 years ago or whenever, people had no morals?
If so, I disagree. I think morality precedes religion.

---
"The market is not an invention of capitalism. It has existed for centuries. It is an invention of civilization."

Atrick: Before Christianity we had Buddhism and further back

On June 13th, 2009 OctoBox says:

Judaism and way way back the origins of Hinduism.

Prior to that man either had "direct link to source" or some type of primitivism to rely on -- Religion is sort of a "lost yet to be found" type of thing -- if you have direct contact there's no need.

Many African and American Indian "primitive societies" believed that women did not need religion because they were a conduit to the divine (bringing babies in the world).

Religion is obviously for men -- our never-off linear thinking needs emotional and expansionary subtext to remain balanced.

Atheistical men compensate for it by being "religious" over certain political - ideological - or ethical philosophies (activism).

The "religious effort" is 100% in every man's life -- regardless of the god-concept.

When I was young I "animated" (methally and emotionally) everything around me -- even God.

When I got older, when that intimacy of "presence" leaves I began to focus on the levels of joy that can be achieved in meditation.

Jesus said, "“The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.”

Octobox

You can always spot a true believer

On June 7th, 2009 Bonhomme Richard says:

They are the ones standing in line to BE NEXT to go to heaven.

Atheist: A virgin in hand is worth 72 in the bush.

adi da samraj

On June 6th, 2009 annica2 says:

used to give the best explanation to what a god actually is. shattering the atheist/religious paradigm. your claim of belief doesn't matter whatsoever. your experiential realizations of reality itself do matter.

i suggest reading "religion and reality" by adi da samraj. or, if you feel like you aren't ready for that, read some ramana maharishi. if you are dead set on being a fundamentalist christian, read thomas merton, one of the greatest christian monastics.

banning atheists from public office is clearly ignorant of reality.

well don't worry, i'll take

On June 4th, 2009 jeffwhite (not verified) says:

well don't worry, i'll take my atheist self and leave your precious little jesusland... along with my money, the jobs i've created, my brain.

fend for yourselves, BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!
--
"Master Blaster runs Bartertown!"
--
"Jeffy likes apples." -Jeffy
--
BUY CHINESE!®
Buy Chinese is a registered trademark of Jeff White

Good article .

On June 3rd, 2009 sentinel says:

I can relate as an atheist that I could never be a part of system where the litmus test is whether or not you believe that there is an invisible man who lives in the sky . No I don't and cannot logically accept that now can I accept stories that have been passed down through 2000 years that state anything with any clarity when the majority of people only just a few hundred years ago were lucky if they could even read . Take that thought back another 1800 years and you are following my thinking.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Live like you mean it ..... Your life is your own !
http://www.randpaul2010.c...

God, morality

On June 3rd, 2009 eagles1028 says:

I respect their right to exist and exercise their free will and believe there is no God, or be unsure on that matter. I believe they can be sincerely caring, moral, and empathic. In my opinion, they are the kind of people who often lack the power to stand for their ideals and intuition in trying times, that's the difference. They are always one step from personal self destruction, because they are not founded in fundamental truth. This isn't about dogma or religion. This is about the Higher power that informs all dogma, religion, fact & fiction. We exist to be in awe of this wonderment and dance throughout it, it is the most critical aspect of morality.

Don't Believe everything you Read

On June 11th, 2009 MMJ Ministry says:

http://www.youtube.com/wa...
----------------
Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
`Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life'- Aristophanes -

As long as you realize...

On June 5th, 2009 AbrahamClark says:

"In my opinion, they are the kind of people who often lack the power to stand for their ideals and intuition in trying times, that's the difference. They are always one step from personal self destruction, because they are not founded in fundamental truth. "

As long as you realize that his is only your opinion and has absolutely no leverage in any real world sense, since it is completely nonsensical to believe you can provide this stereotypical-psychoanalysis of an entire demographic of individuals based on your small sample of individuals you've met.

"We exist to be in awe of this wonderment and dance throughout it, it is the most critical aspect of morality."

I believe that the awe felt from contemplating the Universe and the fact that we are the Universe (e.g. a wave in an ocean may appear to be separate from the ocean, but it is in fact nothing more than water with forces acting on it) Humans are, in the same respect, a wave in a cosmic Ocean.

Your argument holds zero weight unless you believe that God is all there was and is. Why can this not be the Universe as well? Why must God be an entity that actually manipulates what goes on in the Universe? Why must God be a being that can manipulate every single atom in existence?

We simply don't have the answer to all of these questions, and to believe that we do is highly intellectually-egotistical. And to believe that the entire Universe was made just for us is even more egotistical on every level.

~^^Sparkle^^~

On June 5th, 2009 LibBerte says:

I appreciated your wonderful reflections and the awe inspiring thoughts of many here at DP who are dancing with these questions, wide eyed and unafraid ...

http://www.dailypaul.com/...

Flint ...

http://www.dailypaul.com/...

... and steel

http://www.dailypaul.com/...

No basis for intelligibility without belief in the Christian God

On June 3rd, 2009 danielmusician says:

Atheists and agnostics must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to reason. It is impossible to account for things like the laws of logic without presupposing God.

The transcendental argument for the existence of God:
http://www.carm.org/secul...

The transcendental argument for the existence of God used in a debate between Greg Bahnsen and Gordon Stein:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...

In an atheistic universe there is no problem of evil because there are no moral absolutes upon which to define good and evil. Therefore one must presuppose the Christian worldview to even present the problem of evil.

lol

On June 11th, 2009 MMJ Ministry says:

"must borrow from the Christian worldview"
the Christians got their worldview from the pagans.

let me guess, you were born in America and your parents where christian?

----------------
Ron Paul Supporter Since 1997
`Wise people, even though all laws were abolished, would still lead the same life'- Aristophanes -

You just made that up!

On June 18th, 2009 Thundercloud says:

I'm kidding..LOL

and frankly, I want my morals back.
they were borrowed, written up, and called gospel.
All i wanted was to respect my fellow man.

the word transcendental did not come from the naecean christian

On June 6th, 2009 annica2 says:

playbook. it comes from vedic texts and philosophy. christianity never used the word transcendental to describe anything until christians read the vedas.

there is no basis for intelligibility in carrying on the roman empire's interpretation of christianity.

give me a break

On June 6th, 2009 annica2 says:

Morales & Logic are prevelant among all societies

On June 5th, 2009 AbrahamClark says:

"Atheists and agnostics must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to reason. It is impossible to account for things like the laws of logic without presupposing God."

Are you implying that people were not intelligible and had no reason before the Christian God? Why must it be the Christian God? Who is the Christian God anyway? It certainly doesn't appear to be the God of the OT. Now if you simply said Natures God I'd be more willing to take you seriously, but you have claimed that only the Christian worldview is the correct one eventhough Christianity makes up less than half the population and most of the population appears to be somewhat intelligible.

I've always hated the argument that atheists, agnostics, and others are incapable of being moral. This implies that without the fear of punishment from God, all persons would be immoral. This simply isn't the case when we observe human and animal behavior. Being moral has scientific purposes relating to natural selection and survival.

Additionally, why can't we simply accept the idea that we do not know all of the answers, we are still learning, and that maybe things simply are the way they are because we have accepted that. When we didn't understand stars and that the earth rotated around the sun, some took the position that they knew the answers and claimed the earth was at the center. I'm throwing in with those who said... we currently do not know the answer to these questions, but we'll work hard to pursue their answers. No man has the answer to these questions just yet, but I'm surely going to trust a scientist who deals with the physical than a theologian who deals with beliefs.

"In an atheistic universe there is no problem of evil because there are no moral absolutes upon which to define good and evil. "

Rhetorical questions...

If God is that moral absolute then God must also be the one who created evil... why would God create evil? Or is there another God to which has equal power to that of the God who created the moral absolute of Good, and thus they created evil? This also brings up the question... what made God? I know what you'll say... God simply always was he was the origin... or something to this degree. Well then, why can we not accept the premise that maybe the Universe simply always has been and that morals are nothing more than the result of evolution.

I'm an Agnostic but I would say that I believe in God if you define God as being everything. Thus meaning the Universe is God, and we are there forth God's ourselves since we are nothing more than a manifestation of the Universe. This is also scientifically backed given that everything our bodies are made of is traceable to things in the Cosmos. We truly are made from stars... This right here affects me in a deeper spiritual sense than my Christian upbringings ever did.

I'm throwing in with Neil Tyson on this one:
http://www.youtube.com/wa...

"If you eliminate good, evil serves no purpose." Lao Tzu

i've got a basis for

On June 4th, 2009 jeffwhite (not verified) says:

i've got a basis for intelligibility that doesn't require your xian sky phantom:

my eyes, my ears, and my brain.

see no jesus, hear no jesus, speak no jesus!
--
"Master Blaster runs Bartertown!"
--
"Jeffy likes apples." -Jeffy
--
BUY CHINESE!®
Buy Chinese is a registered trademark of Jeff White

You don't actually believe

On June 4th, 2009 yy says:

You don't actually believe that nonsense argument do you?

Yin and Yang

On June 3rd, 2009 ThermopolisWarr... says:

light and dark, truth and deception, nice and mean or life and death. The world is full of dualities.
Personally, I believe in the importance of life, and the duty to protect it.

THE MORE I LEARN ABOUT GOVERNMENT
THE MORE I LOVE MY GUNS
FourWindsTradingPost

A Nice Thoughtful Article

On June 3rd, 2009 LibBerte says:

Thanks for posting it.

I thought so, too...

On June 3rd, 2009 xntryk1 says:

...and you're welcome! :-)

______________________________________
“Let them protest all they want, as long as they pay their taxes.” ...credited to Al Haig, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of State.
http://groups.yahoo.com/g...

We [atheists/agnostics] scare the bejeebers out of them !

On June 2nd, 2009 Bonhomme Richard says:

They don't want to hear God is man made as hateful as homo-phobics fear their own sexual identity.

now i'm in the mood to read

On June 4th, 2009 jeffwhite (not verified) says:

now i'm in the mood to read darwin and have gay sex!

(how exactly is this worse than dropping bombs on children?)

--
"Master Blaster runs Bartertown!"
--
"Jeffy likes apples." -Jeffy
--
BUY CHINESE!®
Buy Chinese is a registered trademark of Jeff White

hahaha

On June 6th, 2009 annica2 says:

thank you for saying that. after reading that comment, i was thinking about a little gay sex myself.

want my phone number? i hope

On June 6th, 2009 jeffwhite (not verified) says:

want my phone number?

i hope you don't mind that i have a beard... i have to hide the stretch marks!
--
"Master Blaster runs Bartertown!"
--
"Jeffy likes apples." -Jeffy
--
BUY CHINESE!®
--
Osama is your enemy not mine! Leave me out of your little spats!