The Amish are the most 'Free Americans' of any group you can name.
How can I make this statement? It boils down to LIFESTYLE. They are almost totally independent of outside society. What they would be wise to do is to politically control their local areas. That way land taxes couldn't drive them off their land. They would remain in control. Already, they are 98% independent with their own land crafts, trades, philosophy (building, clothing, farming, schooling, religion, non-interventionism and energy independence). The whole country could go south and the Amish would not blink an eye and keep on rolling. Why am I pointing this out? To make you realize that the one thing dper's don't give enough thought to is the creation of a peaceful, independent Space of Love wherever they are now! On another tread, I show how this can be achieved with an acre of land. If you have little or no acreage, simply maximize the space available. Think of how to minimize dependence on any system; energy grid, water, sewer, heat, job, food, clothing, shelter. Many here at dp are screaming of the injustices out there but what it amounts to is our dependence frustration with many systems used to enslave us. The peaceful, garden-of-eden lifestyle is the single, most important thing we can focus on. It will turn the whole world around one plot at a time. And it follows to a 'T' the Ron Paul philosophy.
output
i don't think any american religious group is as free
as almost every ashram in india. the ascetics there really know how to live a free life.
sounds free to me
Amish church leaders are chosen by lot—or, as the faithful believe, by the unseen hand of God. The bishop is the highest clergyman in the hierarchy of each church, and he oversees two ministers and a deacon. Men and women propose candidates for minister and deacon, and in most districts any man with two or three nominations is considered. The "elected" clergy is chosen according to a biblical method of casting lots: each man chooses from a pile of identical hymnals, and the one who chooses the book marked with a piece of paper bearing a verse from the Bible becomes a church leader.
The bishop, who is chosen the same way from a field of three ministers, has awesome authority. He interprets the Ordnung, the unwritten rules that govern each church district, stipulating everything from the size of a man's hat brim to the paint color on the outside of a house. When a church member violates the Ordnung, the bishop determines the punishment.
read on:
http://www.legalaffairs.o...
If the majority of Congress
If the majority of Congress were Amish, would we have more freedom, liberty and peace? My guess is that we probably would.
Don't forget
More puppy mills too, and more subservient women and a county full of eight grade educated workers to pick cotton with Dale's kin in Oki ;). Not to mention no military. You are a genius ! You should tell Paul about your idea.
There is much more to the
There is much more to the Amish community than meet the average person...They seperate themselves but also are allowed to because of exploitation , Tourism , ETC...They have their problems like any society.There are lots of books written on this subject I don't need to give my 2 cents.
you-no
What is this post fishing
What is this post fishing for ? Info on the Amish ?
you-no
The Most Free
The people that are the most free are the illegal aliens.
Why Argue
Why argue about how free they are. Certainly they are more free than most of us, and to the extent that we can adopt some of their practices, we can become more free by following their lead. The more of your own food and energy you can create, the more free you are.
Amish Free?
The Amish, like you and I, must pay federal, state, and local income taxes, unemployment tax, etc. They were released from obligation to pay medicare taxes.
Perhaps someone here can tell me why we, the general public, must pay medicare taxes considering that the fourteenth amendment says that we shall have "equal protection of the laws?"
Yeah, but you forgot to mention...
Who are the mindless serf's who pick cotton in their oligarchy ? I'll tell you - their wives and children ! Also they are notorious for running those infamous puppy mills where bitches are bred 24/7 and consider it a cash crop. IMO low-life scumbags.
what is your point?
My Grandmother picked cotton on their farm, my grandfather worked most of his younger years digging sweet potatoes. What exactly is your point? The women and children are picking cotton and the men are building barns, building houses, cutting hay, working the fields, working the livestock.. what exactly is your point?
They choose that lifestyle for a reason, and they are happy. Some people would rather have a slower lifestyle that keeps them closer to God and the earth that God gave us...that makes them low life scumbags in your book? Or is it that some you have heard of have run puppy mills that makes the Amish scum? Normal people run puppy mills too, are we all scum because of that? I also read below how you accuse them of polygamy..now you are proving that you know nothing of the Amish...although there may be few exceptions to the rule..the Amish do not take multiple wives..and your accusation of pedophilia?..you are so confused...perhaps you have news reports of FLDS still running amok in your pea-brain..you should know what the hell your talking about before you start speaking garbage about a group of people just because they aren't heathens like yourself. May God have mercy on your cruel, uninformed, judgmental, selfish soul.
But don't worry, I'm afraid most people in this world would agree with everything that you speak...but then again that is why the Amish are still the Amish...they are in this world but not of this world. There is a large Amish community near here and they are the most wonderful and helpful people I know in my venture to start my own farm/ranch/restaurant. They are self sufficient and spend time with their families and with God...say what you want about them but you are clearly a foolish person.
Scumbag is in the eye of the beholder...
Pea-brain this away -
The Lancaster, Pennsylvania newspaper Intelligencer Journal published a four-part series on domestic abuse, child abuse, and child sexual abuse inside Amish (and Mennonite) families within the heart of Pennsylvania Dutch country. These articles suggested that abuse may be systematically silenced inside Amish (and Mennonite) churches, because of the emphasis on Gelassenheit and male authority in the church. The series, published on August 4, 2004, began with an article entitled "Silenced by Shame: Hidden in Plain Sight," and ended with an article entitled "The Ties That Bind Can Form the Noose." As the article "Beliefs, Culture Can Perpetuate Abuse in Families, Churches" makes clear, child and spousal abuse may be concealed or denied. One reaction from an Old Order woman was the following: "They made Plain women look too stupid and ignorant to know how to get help."
[Dale in Oklahoma - QUOTE] "They choose that lifestyle for a reason, and they are happy. Some people would rather have a slower lifestyle that keeps them closer to God and the earth that God gave us...that makes them low life scumbags in your book?" "They are self sufficient and spend time with their families and with God" [UN-QUOTE]
Indiana Amish Puppy Mill (video) >>
http://video.yahoo.com/wa...
that dude is not Amish with
that dude is not Amish with his calculator and phone. Maybe Indiana Amish are fake? haha
In Shipshewana, the Heart of Northern Indiana Amish Country
When I had dinner with a Amish family they had electric fans running. Yo ! Dale in Oklahoma, maybe they can't take the heat after working in the cotton fields all day ? One young daughter looked like she was really frazzled in the heat waiting on everyone hand and foot from kitchen to table. At one point I thought she was going to breakdown and start crying her eyes out. She reminded me of Cinderella working for step-sisters.
After all, what could a pea brain pinhead from Chicago know about freedom compared to freedom loving cotton pickers from Oklahoma ?
so...
basically your saying that you read it somewhere... :O) Haven't learned much from this whole liberty and freedom thing have you. This says it all for me... "The Lancaster, Pennsylvania newspaper Intelligencer Journal published..."
Here's evidence that Ron Paul is a certifiable kook..must be true because it was published.. http://news.aol.com/newsb...
Here is an actual report by your beloved government that states that we are all potential terrorist who need to be watched...must be true..it is also published and a PDF... http://www.scribd.com/doc...
Sorry I didn't do any "research" on Ron Paul and puppy mills but I'm sure I could come up with some "video evidence" of some sort to prove my point...
ahh the world of research and truth by "google"... this revolution has no chance with pinheads like you involved.
You crack me up !
Ron Paul a kook, and DP'ers terrorists ? You been on dailypaul too long !
Can't say that I have been in their cotton fields picking cotton like your family, but I have been on their farms and had dinner with them. I even have one of their inbred puppy mill dogs. No, I didn't buy it, I took it in because I felt sorry for the dog. I can only imagine how one of your, "most wonderful" people grabbed his tail the kink it has. I don't know about you, but every GD day I'm thankful I'm a pinhead heathen !
Perhaps
they consider you the same as you think of them.
Won't argue that...
After all - only a self-serving religious scumbag could pretend that polygamy, pedophilia, and animal cruelty is a God given right to men over their beasts of burden.
Adolf Hitler said he was doing the Lords work too.
"his home community gives"
To say "his home community gives him time off" does not sound free. Their internal restrictions are ok as long as he is free to leave or otherwise not accept the restrictions.
The advantage these people have is the lack of external restrictions. This helps them be self sufficient and free of the government medical and food matrix.
I'm not promoting their religion,
but I'd rather have them for neighbors than most people. They're all kinfolk. Each young person makes a decision to go or stay when grown. If he chooses baptism, he's chosen to stay. Still they can leave the family at any time. Many go see the bright lights, but most of them come back.When "his home community gives him time off" means his father and uncles give him time off.
Like the Amish they avoid our world as much as possible.
Not true. They have their
Not true.
They have their own internal entrapments, controls, social stigmas, dogmas that far exceed the average American citizen's.
Your idea is completely biased....
They are free to choose.
When government imposes we aren't.
It is all voluntary association
No Amish are tethered.
Tethered by birth and family
Tethered by birth and family which is much worse. Imagine to have to choose between family and freedom from Amish society.
Sorry, you folks don't know what you're talking about. I used to live off of 83 South across the MD/PA line. I've met a girl who ranaway from the Amish society. You're vision of freedom does not correlated to her situation....
no kidding..
an amish kid ran away?...wasn't happy? I've never heard of a child running away because they didn't like the rules and the way things were run at home...Or am i in dreamland? What kid hasn't "ran away" or wanted to at times... my goodness you people are dense...Just because they aren't materialistic heathens and they would rather work the land and spend time with their families you people jump on them like ravenous lions...
For people who fight for liberty and freedom for all you people sure are hateful and judgmental towards those of us who are different. I ran away from home..better warn everyone who grew up as a teachers kid and the grandson of hard working farmer/ranchers...should we just round them all up and re-educate them to our liking?
Sir, in all due respect, are
Sir, in all due respect, are you drinking? When was I being hateful? I was pointing out the obvious flaws in the OP's thought process... that's it! And believe there are some major flaws.
The idea of FREEDOM is to be able to live your life as you wish as long as you don't hurt anyone or piss off your neighbor. Anymore than that and it's not Freedom anymore. Now, I doubt the Amish rule book stops at 2 rules....
correct bigsur
I live amongst the Amish here in Western Ohio and Eastern Indiana. One of the largest settlements is 10 miles from my home.
First off, if the Amish choose not to join the chuch they are ex-communicated from the church and their own family. Which means, you can never come back, ever, and your parents will have considered you dead.
But the "time off" period you may be talking about is call Rumspringa. This is the period in time when the Amish youth are urged to try worldly lives and use drugs, drink, own vehicles, have promiscuous sex. Then they are forced to make the decision whether to join the church or to leave.
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
And they have their own system of hierarchy (government) control. A group of the eldermen make the decisions for the whole group, kinda like something familiar to us.
The Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, etc.
all come from the Anabaptist tradition, and are among the most moral,decent people anywhere. If the rest of us were like them, the police wouldn't have much business.
The Hutterites are interesting in that they're modern (they use machinery). They live according to the Book of Acts where all lived together. A large extended family, maybe a hundred, live on a large farm (thousands of acres) in the northern plains states or Canada. They're among the most efficients farmers in the world.
The province of Alberta passed laws against them fearing they'd one day own the whole province.
In their first hundred years in North America (came in the 1870's) they had not one divorce. Thirty years ago there were about 35000 of them.
Anyone interested in business organization or even organizing a political group would do well to study how they organize. When their numbers reach say 120, they buy another farm and split. From experience they've learned, even though they're highly motivated Christians, cliques start to form with associated big problems. They've learned there is an optimum size for them and it's less than 120. By splitting they maintain efficiency and peace in the family.
The point here is those of us who are interested in achieving in the political world might do well to understand that building a larger and larger pyramidal organization is not the way to go.
PS When a young male baptised Hutt shows up in another community alone in a pick-up truck, everyone knows he's there for one reason and one reason only. He's wife shopping. His home community gives him time off to go take care of business. When it's time to get married, he just goes an gets him one, practical people. Sometimes he has someone in mind.
moral and decent????
than explain how these moral and decent folks have the nations highest rates of incest and rape.
where did you get that info?
or does just typing it make it so?...here let me try...I have a million ounces of gold in the bank.....I have a million ounces of gold in the bank....nope..doesn't work that way.
check it out
look it up
They are dependent on
non-Amish for midwives and medical treatment because they don't educate past the 8th grade. They have just as many of their own nit-picky rules they have to live by as we have under the feds, they're just different rules. In addition to that, they have to contend with the federales, the state and local governments, anyway. It's tough to be them.
To clarify some misconceptions, first the Amish should not be
confused with the Mennonites who drive, use electricity, and thus are relatively mobile outside their immediate community. It is true that both sects take jobs outside their land and therefore would be required to conform with the government demands on employment and thus unemployment. Therefore, it is imperative that both groups become politically active and learn to further control their individual destinies by eliminating property taxation which has driven many Amish westward. Once this problem is resolved, they can return to the motherland totally independent of government interference. The next challenge for them is Big AgrChem independence. Here, they are too mechanized, use gmo seeds, and harmful chemicals. When they begin to do it naturally correct, their topsoil and healthy/sweet tasting vegetables will increase and once more become the benchmark. One benchmark the Amish and Mennonites have unwaveringly held onto is their non-military peace commitment. We can swell these peace ranks through our lifestyle choices.
"Angelic Realities: The Survival Handbook" @ azuritepress.com
There are many Amish
There are many Amish communities in my state. There is much to be admired about the Amish and their way of life. But as an animal lover, I need to point out that the Amish are considered to be a leader in the the number of puppy mill operations in this country. In an effort to spread the message that puppy mills should be put out of business, I believe that these links should be considered. Education is the key.
http://abcnews.go.com/Bus...
http://www.nytimes.com/19...
http://www.examiner.com/x...
there are some
there are some misconceptions below.
first, Amish do NOT pay income, and often, property tax!
They are the freest from government. Without Social Security Numbers, they CANT pay un-employment, fica, income tax, SS, etc.
They do not get building permits, drivers license', etc
They must OPT out ,which
They must OPT out ,which means they are subject to..Besides we provide their defence..AND yes I have been around them all my 59 years.
you-no
You are mistaken. The Amish
You are mistaken. The Amish OPT OUT by not signing up for Social Security in the first place, they do not get birth certificates, they do not get drivers licenses, etc. which are ALL contracts of consent. Without these items, there is NO way the government can track them, much less charge them for their existence.
Are there Amish with SS numbers? Of course. But the "true" sovereign Amish have no affiliation with the Govt. And yes, I have been around Amish for a long time...growing up just outside of Vermontville Michigan, and being a driver for the Amish to our construction sites for 7 years, I asked a lot of questions....
Although I disagree with the Amish' religious views, they are all great people who exist without the burden of govt.
Providing the defense of the nation, is one of the few obligations of the govt...that is NOT privileged activity. Getting a savings account from the government IS a privilege.
http://wgns.net/AUDIOS/SE...
I respect them
but, I am not so sure that I consider their lifestyle "free". They are more free from government than the average person, I guess, but you can't be an "individual" and be part of the Amish community. Collectivist lifestyle is what I would call it.They are a religious based group and therefore, are bound/controlled by religion. I know practically nothing about the Amish, but I assume that you can't be an agnostic Amish person. I am a tattoo artist...would I be free to persue that and still be Amish? I don't know, but I doubt it.
**************************************************8
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy
Amish now drawing unemployment
I live and work around Amish and they are being pretty severly effected by the ressesion. A lot of their work, roofing, construction and even factory jobs were lost along side that of other americans. And the ones that were working at factory jobs were paying taxes and are now on unemployment. It is true they can go back and tend for themselves but they were deffinatlly effected. Dont belive for a moment their arent looking to make a dollar...even some in the area are using mechacnized tractors and driving trucks.
From the sound of it, our economic collapse has taught them not to get tied to the modern US gov the way they have in years past.
http://archives.chicagotr...
"A Home Grown Revolution" (10 min vedio)
"I knew early on that we had to settle the food problem, because if you can grow food, its empowering, its powerful. In fact, I would say that growing food is one of the most dangerous occupations on the face of this earth, because you are in danger of becoming free."
http://www.youtube.com/wa...
And never forget, “Humans, despite our artistic pretensions, our sophistication and many accomplishments, owe the fact of our existence to a six-inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains.”
I agree
But disagree, you need at least 5-10 acres for a family. While it is true one acre of potatoes can feed a family of 5 for an entire year, I don't think you want to be eating potatoes all your days.
But 5-10 acres you will be able to diversify, grow an acre or two of corn and wheat, feed some chickens, fruit trees, berries, some pasture and hay, goats cows, pigs, etc.
Do expect the FBI and IRS to show up at your door, they don't like people not being slaves.
There was a book
called, I think, "Five Acres and Independence", practical instructions on how to survive.
I love the Amish people.
Bump for admiration and complete respect!
Fine examples of true American's.
The Amish have a lot of teachings if people are willing to listen.
grant
While the Amish enjoy many
While the Amish enjoy many separations from society, they are not without beholdings to society ..They are GIVEN special exemption but are subject to the Gov't..They take care of their own,( financialy), but still use Hospitals & state regulatory restrictions & many of societies infrastructure ..They also are somewhat dependant on society, to puchase their goods & services ..They need to earn cash for taxes, ETC....Lots of them have businesses besides the farm...So don't get confused ..They are not totally self sufficient ..
you-no
I'm likely not as free as the Amish, but,
I live where I live primarily for the freedom I am fortunate enough to enjoy - with the definition of freedom being not being able to do anything I want (but it's really not lacking), but not being forced to do things I do not want to do (virtually none - minimal real estate tax - $6 bucks a year for 40 undeveloped acres, and $300 for 38 acres with $500k of taxable improvements). If I can talk the sheriff into banning the EPA's jurisdiction, this would be near perfect, but I hesitate to ask authority to protect me - that's my job.. I actually think the "people per acre" ratio is the key (county ratio is about 1 person per acre AND the area I live in is about 1 person per 15 acres. I have 80 acres. My closest neighbor is 1/4 mile away (as the crow flies 1 mile by road). I can see only 4 houses from my "top of the mountain" house. I may be able to hit one house with a real rifle (loose tranlation - nobody can hit me without cutting fences or a friggin expensive sniper rifle. There is only one path to my house that vehicles can use (including quads - I've tred) - my driveway. My gate is electronic, and takes a while to defeat by someone who knows what they're doing, 98% of my 1/2 mile drive with over 300 ft of elevation change is clearly visible from my house. Nobody sneaks up on me. My natural security is not unique in the community I live in. Most drives are 1/4 to 1/2 mile with significant elevation change. I'll likely live here until I die. Every time I travel (midwest for family, primarily) I cannot waite to return to my sanctuary. Gated community with 15+ miles of PRIVATE roads. The problem with private roads is you're responsible for the maintanace of the roads, but the benefits are awsome. Never patrolled, can drive home from a friend's without fear after drinking (& other recreational activities). There has NEVER been an intoxicstion related accident. The last accident we had was an elderly (66yo)_ lady who was simple driving too fast (posted speed limits =25, and I personally cannot make that corner at more than 40, even on my quad) she hit a 20mph corner at 50mph(skid mark analysis - yea 2 LE's live in my community) and ended up in the ditch. We used my buddy's (LE) truck with a 2000lb winch to pull her car out, she wasn't hurt, and we'll fix her car for a fews hundred $s. No police report, no insurance co involvement - simple & cheap.
I usually don't disclose exactly where I live, bacause I don't want to change the mix of my community (it's really that good), but there is some acrage available in my community for around $2k per acre in 35 acre minimums). Theren is not even a remote chance of me making $ from a land sale in my community. PM me if you'd like info - I'd really welcome RP supporters, and you'd better like to party. Quad parties (pack your quad-bags with beer and visit every house in the community 3-10 hours, typicallly more guns than quads), walking parties (12 pack on your shoulder exploring a neighbor's property (I'm a 57yn yo cigarette smoker who can usually make a 30 yo non-smokjer cry and beg to stop walking), chiminia parties (gathering around an outside fire to BS, watch the skies listen to music, sing, dance... I'm 57, and I haven't had as much fun as I have had in the past 13 years that I've lived in my canyon since I was a crazy hippie dude in the early70's. My community's age range is late 30's to mid70"s, with a median around 53. But we party(no, seriously, we party).. I can only remember 1 time that my friends / neighbors didn't trust my dogs to drive me home! (F'n moonshine!!!)
Virtually all of my empathy comes from 2nd hand experiences. TSA opinions are 1st hand. Missouri is directly between me and my Dad & daughter & grand-kids, but I'll never be in Missouri again - Crap, when I read about the oppression people in high population density areas endure, I really cannot relate. Seriously people, CHOOSE WHERE YOU LIVE God have mercy on adersaries atacking me in my house (air to ground missle would likely be effective) I have a 500-200 yd rifle, a 200 to50 yd semi-auto rifle, then shotgot gun, then SA pstsols. I don't worry too much - my doors have never been locked and my vehicle keys are always in my ignition whether I'm home or not.
(who knows when a friend might need something). My workshop is 1/4 mile from my house - it is never locked and I have never had anything stolen from it (borrowed, yes, stolen, never) some stuff is reasonably portabe (welders, plasma torches, hand poower tools, and some would take 3 gorillas to move out & load.
As I'm sure I've said before, I do not understand why people live where they do. 13 years ago, I made a choice (horrible econimic dsecision, but perfect life decision) and walked away from a VP position with a Fortune 100 company. I would have been required to move to a high density area (ST. Louis). It was actually hard to adjust lifestyle from having a lot of income to having none,. What I leaned in that transition, I should have known all my life...
I completely agree with the OP's obsevation of the impact of LIFESTYLE choice.
I have yet to break my dependance on the electrical grid, but with info from a DP post, I have developed an affordable method to minimize the cost of being grid connected and having the quantity of electridity that I want (most of my toys consume large quantities of elecrticity). To house the batteries to be completely off the grid, I would need a minimum of 1000 sq ft. Batteries in that quantity are relatively dangerous and hazardous (lead acid to lithium). But with current technilogy, you can use the grid as your batteries! Kewl
To close this ramble, suffice to say, there truely are free places within the US Wyoming & Montana work wrt freedom opportunities, but tey re so friggin cold. I look forward to the time my situation is not the exception, but the rule. For me, personally that is the reason I am politically active.
Ron Paul - Hope for America
When the whole country goes south
Look at history, when the whole country goes south, the Amish will be persecuted and their freedoms taken from them by the have nots.
that is only possible because of personal responsibility!!!!!!!!
I dare say that if they were not so strict in all the facets of life that they are strict in (practically everything) they would not be indipendent. I dare say that most of the people on this sight are not willing to be a tenth as disciplened as these people and most americans are not willing to be 1/100 as disciplened, we are taught in schools to be lazy, and well where, slothfullness takes root so does tyrony we are also taught from the desk to be immoral (large class size where they never seem to get rid of the bad kid or really discourage the child from being bad), which also helps tyrony.
with out self control we will never control government.
Watch out!
for that tyrony...and beef-a-roni and minestrone too!
someguy, please give a link to your other
thread showing how to be independent on an acre.
And we certainly could learn a lot from the practical Amish traditions. But these sweet, slightly naive people don't seem to have been effective in securing freedom in their local areas despite a large concentration of numbers. Unless I've mixed it up, I read recently that Lancaster PA has one of the largest numbers of surveillance cameras in the country. Also when I lived back east, I bought raw milk and such from the Amish, and they had a lot of legal issues to deal with in selling their products.
Good people, I admire their independence (as a group.) But they have a culture that is homogeneous, a shared religion and rather strict traditions, quite unlike a potential libertarian culture.."
I like your goal, "a peaceful, independent Space of Love."