• What?

    So how exactly does reality determine the necessity of rebellion to be an initiation of force?

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Do you even realize what you are saying?

    "So by definition to rebel is to recognize the established government or ruler as such, although illegitimate."

    That entire sentence doesn't even make any sense. If you find something to be illegitimate you are saying it is not rightful, legal, or valid. You can't say that it is valid and invalid, rightful and unrightful, legitimate and illegitimate at the same time. If you recognize that they are illegitimate you are recognizing them as a fraud.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • So now you're adding a qualifier?

    You can make up your own special definition of "rebellion" if you want to, but you can't expect other people to accept that made up definition and from that accept your argument that rebellion is immoral. Nothing in the definition of the word indicates that initiation of force is a necessary component of a rebellion.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Thanks man.

    I really don't care much for people throwing the term "troll" around willy-nilly just because a conversation is going on that they don't personally find useful. I certainly didn't think any of your comments deserved to be categorized as "trolling" and, although I disagree with him and don't find his arguments convincing, I didn't see any comments from snakepit that could reasonably be classified as such either. My guess is that the commenter has a very broad definition for what a "troll" is. The sad part is that this individual's comment makes him (or her?) into the very thing he accuses everyone else to be.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Sorry, but I don't buy your argument.

    Let's look at some definitions:

    rebellion:
    1: An act of violent or open resistance to an established government or ruler.
    2: The action or process of resisting authority, control, or convention.

    To resist is to refuse to accept or comply with something. So, to rebel is to refuse to accept or comply with the way something is normally done or the commonly recognized or accepted person or body who holds power to influence or direct behavior and events.

    I would argue that by its very nature a rebellion expresses the recognition of the illegitimacy of the authority being rebelled against.

    The only time a rebellion would be immoral is if the individual or individuals rebelling violated the NAP.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • No, I think the problem is that you don't understand physics.

    The building's collapse DID accelerate at a speed indistinguishable from free fall. That is a fact. It has been measured and verified, even by the liars at NIST despite them trying to first deny it. Free fall in Newtonian physics is the motion of an object where the only force acting upon it is its own weight. Weight is the force on an object due to gravity. NIST calculated that WTC7 was in free fall for 2.25 seconds. That could only have been done if several floors and supporting structures were blown out at specifically timed intervals allowing the structure to fall unimpeded to where it could reach a rate of acceleration. That could not happen in a scenario with gradual weakening of support structures due to fire where the resistance from each floor hitting the one below would cause deceleration in the fall due to resistance. Look at video of acknowledged controlled implosion demolitions and notice how they blow out several floors. As the buildings collapse the rate of the fall accelerates. Here, I'll include some for you:

    Landmark Tower implosion:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79sJ1bMR6VQ

    Aladdin Hotel implosion:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=cRaNwPGcQcM&feature=fvwp

    Everglades Hotel implosion:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XG-l3N1YfQ

    West Palm Beach condo implosion:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFb4puln_No

    Now, in case you don't take my word for it you can check out David Chandler's video analysis of NIST's treatment of the WTC7 free fall issue from which I obtained the information in my last comment. Mr. Chandler is a high school physics teacher. I assume these should be sufficient credentials for you considering you cited your position as a middle school teacher whose curriculum includes teaching fallacies to demonstrate that you are a sort of authority on that particular subject in your "Truthers continue to see what they want to see" post.

    This video, which is part 1 of 3, is just under 11 minutes long and covers Chandler's discussion of the issue with free fall in the NIST report:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGMvnwjUizY

    Part 2, just under 6 minutes, addresses NIST's measurement of the time of collapse:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvy7w139Hkc&feature=endscreen...

    Part 3, a little over 10 minutes, goes into Chandler's detailed analysis of the WTC7 collapse:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqucIFM7S1Y

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • So everybody is a troll

    just because they're engaged in this particular debate that you find useless? And who said anything about being afraid? I'm certainly not fearful. I don't need an entire government of Ron Pauls, as you put it, to know that they were lying about 9-11 and covered it up. I don't have to know the whole story, just knowing they lied about it is enough for me to know who I can't trust. 9-11 turned out to be the event that woke me up, and waking up may have been scary at first, but now my soul feels more free than it ever was before because I know the truth. The PTB can do whatever they like to my physical body, but they can't crush my soul. So no, fear does not control me.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Well, DUH!

    It's because the laws of physics took the day off. Pfft, everyone knows that! ;)

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Let's look at what the lead NIST investigator said then...

    In August 2008 NIST released the draft of their final report for public comment; they then held a technical briefing to allow individuals with certain credentials to pose questions. One question asked was how it was that NIST could have arrived at the conclusion that the rate of the collapse of WTC7 was 40% slower than the rate of free fall when all measurable data shows that the building fell within a few percent of the acceleration of gravity. The lead investigator for NIST, Shyam Sunder, included this in his response:

    "A free fall time would be an object that has no structural components below it."

    When stating their analysis showed the time it took for the structure to collapse was "roughly 40% more" than what free fall would have been he said, "that is not at all unusual because there was structural resistance that was provided in this particular case and you had a sequence of structural failures that had to take place and everything was not instantaneous.

    According to Mr. Sunder, NIST determined in the draft of the final report the following:
    - free fall would take 3.9 seconds for WTC7
    - their computer model predicted 5.4 seconds
    - the slower time was to be expected because (1) there was structural support (2) there was a progression of failures and (3) these failures weren't instantaneous

    Now, when the final version of the report came out in November 2008 NIST suddenly changed their mind about free fall and said that it did, in fact, occur. So how is it that the laws of physics, which were clearly described by Mr. Sunder when he stated the conditions required for free fall, suddenly change in 3 months? They completely fudged the data to cover up the existence of free fall. When this was pointed out to them they tried to defend their data and insist free fall did not, and could not, occur due to the existence of structural support. Then, they just decided to admit that it did happen, even though they said it wasn't a possibility, and just shrugged it off.

    How can anyone take the investigation of the collapse of the towers that day seriously when this is the sick joke we have parading as "scientific analysis" of the events?

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Why do people believe the official story?

    I suspect a big part of it has to do with the implications of NOT believing it. It forces people to have to reconsider their entire reality. I accepted the official story for quite a while because of those implications. I never looked too far into it or just kinda dismissed oddities because it was just easier to not know. Additionally, I had been taught all throughout my lifetime that the government was, for the most part, good. That the intentions of our "leaders" were, for the most part, pure. They wanted the best for us and even to protect us from *those people*, whoever they might be, who may want to do us harm. That whole notion of American exceptionalism which leads us to assume that because ours was a nation founded on something entirely different, the first of its kind, that we would forever remain the most free and righteous by virtue of merely continuing to exist. So why ever question that they might be intentionally lying to us? Sure, sometimes politicians could be individually selfish or scheming, but not to this degree and on such a large scale. And surely if they were somehow involved someone would have said something. The news would be all over it, right? Right?

    But then it got to a point where there was just too much evidence to dismiss, and the further I looked into it the more convincing it became to me that the official story was a total fabrication. Accepting this is what woke me up from the whole left/right paradigm. Everything that didn't make sense to me regarding the world and our government suddenly started to become more clear. The pieces began to fall into place. The implications were far reaching and terrifying.

    It's hard to have to consider that we don't have as much control or input into our government, our world, our life as we might originally think we do. It's difficult to accept that there may me a large group of sociopaths orchestrating much of what happens in our world. It's frightening to think that 1984 may not just be an interesting work of fiction, but possibly something very similar to our reality. The illusion is just convincing enough for most people to never see the reality. I guess I can't really blame them.

    So, are people responsible for their beliefs? I think the answer is that ultimately yes, they are. However, we should have some patience and understanding when trying to persuade them to reconsider those beliefs. Reevaluating what one has held as true for so long is an internal process that requires one to divorce the personal attachment one places on their beliefs. They may feel that their entire identity, or at least a part of it, is structured around these beliefs and that letting go of those ideas is letting go of a part of themselves in a way. And when it comes to 9-11, denying the official story is having to wake up to the notion that much of what you see everyday is one big fat lie. I think people who accept the official version know this, and it's easier to just say that a lie of that size could never be than to accept that it might very well be.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Common misconception, sadly.

    When discussing racism in one of my college psych classes a girl behind me said, "I thought only white people can be racist."

    I won't mention what race she was for fear of being labeled "RACIST".

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Lol

    It's a toss-up. That entire segment was a parade of stupid on all accounts.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • You're welcome :)

    And thanks for reminding me of the soft porn fiasco! I didn't comment on either of those posts, but holy sh*t was that entertaining! I'm definitely right there with ya on the holier than thou nonsense. It always ends up biting those people in the end and sometimes they don't like the taste of humble pie, but that's why they should refrain from mounting that high horse to begin with. I may not be religious, but I've got mad respect for Jesus and his message. :)

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Wouldn't that be

    instrumental value, not intrinsic value?

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • This:

    "Don't be pointing out the splinter in someone else's eye, when you have yet to acknowledge the supersized log in your own eye."

    Amen to that Nonna!

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Seems like there's a false assumption at work.

    I don't know of any homosexuals who have children and try to "teach" them to be gay. They might encourage them to be open-minded and accepting of people regardless of whether they are gay or straight, but not that gay is good and straight is bad. I don't teach my son that gay is bad and straight is good, just to be compassionate and understanding. If he comes to me when he's 17 and says "Mom, I'm gay" I'll still love him and won't be disappointed in him. Although, I doubt that will ever happen judging by his current demeanor.

    If a homosexual person were to pose the question you included in your comment I would tell them they were guilty of committing the same action they have been fighting against from some straight individuals and that makes them a hypocrite. Though I doubt many, if any, homosexuals would do this because, as I mentioned earlier, they aren't arguing from a position of good vs. bad regarding sexual orientation. I'm not sure that you understand that point.

    Regarding your question #2 in the OP- Yes.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • Lol

    I have no idea. Pretty awesome though, right?

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • I'm not religious,

    but I am spiritual. And I dig what you're sayin', No.7.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • They do, unfortunately.

    I remember reading several years ago about some murders related to the AB in this area (East Texas). If I remember correctly, one of their own snitched or ticked off another member or something so they killed him and dumped his body in a river, I believe. Quite a pathetic lot the AB.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.

  • That video

    was fucking hysterical.

    I'm reaching up and reaching out.
    I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
    And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
    We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
    Spiral out.