• I have not replied because my bear brain cannot understand what

    you are conveying and I have read a few times and I still do not understand.


  • Choice and Force

    The reason I used force is because in the case you gave, Peter was not given a choice. He was directly commanded by the “Jewish Religious Police” to quit speaking the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. It was not a request. It was a direct command from the religious government to which he replied, "We ought to obey God rather than men."

    That quote is directly referring back to the command found earlier in chapter 5 in verses 19 & 20 “But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.”

    I say the same thing: "We ought to obey God rather than men."

    Right now we have a choice, as in we are not forced, but when the choice is removed, I will obey a direct command from God rather than men.

    You said, “Our government does not force us to do these things. They give us a choice, submit or jail time.”

    That is exactly where Peter and the Apostles found themselves and were willing to go back to jail or even die to obey God rather than men. Their concern was following God, not what would happen to them if they didn’t obey men.

    Jesus said this:

    • Matthew 10:28 KJV
    And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    So, you ask: “Are we to follow Romans 13, or obey God?”

    My reply is both. I will respect authority as long as I am not requested to disobey God. And at that time in which I am requested to disobey God, I will fear God rather than man. Man can only kill my body, but God has control over both the body and soul. I will follow Romans 13 until such time as I cannot follow Romans 13 because I am told to do something directly in opposition to God’s command.

    I will hope to find company from those who have gone ahead of me from those found here:

    You ask me if I know what Sophistry is. My first introduction to that subject was here: http://www.dailypaul.com/245310/sophistry-a-favorite-tool-of...

    You said “Romans 13 as it is universally taught as translated in the NIV tells us to submit to government, it DOES NOT tell us to submit only to righteous government. It tells us to submit to government, period. Romans 13 DOES NOT say, "submit to government in the Lord". It says, "submit to government because God put them there".

    My point is that the Bible interprets the Bible. So even though Romans 13 doesn’t say “in the Lord,” Acts 5:29 does say that. You cannot take one single scripture and ignore the rest of the scripture.

    So you say: “Acts 5:29 and Romans 13 do not work together. They are directly opposed to each other.

    They are not directly opposed to each other. The principles build one upon another along with Jesus’s words to fear God and not men. But Jesus also paid tribute “so as not to offend them”:

    • Matthew 17:27 KJV
    Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up ; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou Neshalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

    There are times to obey and there are times not to obey. You could say Jesus paid for the nails they used to bind him to the cross with that tribute money.

    The point you make about “the Crusades were justified with scripture” And that people (using me as an example) can justify anything they want with the Bible is exactly why one scripture cannot be pulled out of the context of the WHOLE Bible and used to justify an action. You cannot negate Romans 13 and only use Acts 5.

    And as far as the NIV, my Pastor does not use the NIV. How can you claim that the NIV teaching of Romans 13 is blanket taught? Have you been to every church every time that passage has been taught and heard the teaching specifically? The link I gave you to Chuck Baldwin does not teach Romans 13 the NIV way. Chuck Baldwin is a Pastor and co-wrote a book with his son regarding Romans 13.

    These people do not send their children to war and have stood as pacifists since the Revolutionary War. They were mistreated during WW1 when they would not comply and fight. They did not fight during WW2 either: http://www.exploring-amish-country.com/amish-history.html However if you look at the WWII title, you will see that they were treated better in WWII because they had made a stand in WWI.

    Part of obeying God rather than men may include hardship if the men you do not obey decide to inflict it upon you. That is evident in history and evident in the Bible. As far as Hitler, there were many who gave their lives because they did not submit. Immediate to my mind is Bonheoffer who was killed and Niemöller who was imprisoned.

    What exactly are you talking about when referring to the Spoken Word of God? How does one hear that word? Can that word contradict the Written Word? How does one verify the spoken word as being from God?


  • "bear may respond, I don't know"

    You know that fish, can you imaginE a bear voice instead asking, "What am I supposed to be doing?" when it comes to bears equitable exchange with Josf. Is bear supposed to do book work or is bear supposed to listen to episodes? I am still on episode 4, but I think I have listened to most of it, but am not sure. Do you want me to listen to episodes and discuss with you or do you want me to do book work or do you want me to alternate days? bear is lost in the woods and cannot see the path thru the trees because of the forest ahead.

    I also thought you were still replying on that other reply so I didn't answer it yet. But I don't know. Also I know we could go on and on about each episode chasing every single answer and every single question and every single thought. bear needs some directions. :0 as if Josf gives directions. It seems to me that Josf doesn't tell anyone what to do because that may not be equitable, but I am asking, how can bear best use time? bear wants to respond, but doesn't konw how time should be spent...and bear is running a marathon this summer it seems. It seems last summer the boys spent a lot of time swimming in the pool at home, but the pool hasn't been put up yet and it seems miles upon miles are spent being taxi driver.


  • Scripture interprets Scripture!

    I like this guy's take on it: http://chuckbaldwinlive.com/Articles/tabid/109/ID/511/Romans...

    You will see that both

    "We ought to obey God rather than men." Acts 5:29


    "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God : the powers that be are ordained of God. 2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil." Romans 13 KJV

    work together.

    Just like this: Children obey your parents:

    Ephesians 6:1 KJV
    Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.


    Colossians 3:20 KJV
    Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

    Ephesians says "in the Lord" and Colossians says "in all things." So which is it? Are children to obey their parents in all things even if it violates the Law of God? Or are children to obey their parents in the Lord?

    The answer to that question is the purpose of II Timothy 2:15
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    To rightly divide the word of truth, one must use scripture to interpret scripture.

    So in my example: children obey your parents in all things IN THE LORD.

    and in you example: Be subject to the higher powers as long as you OBEY GOD RATHER than man.

    You ask:

    "So when the government tells us to kill, to covet our neighbor through socialist programs, to dishonor our parents through SS-medicare, to spy on our neighbor for THEM, ect, ect.... "

    I ask so I can understand better:

    Which of these commands are involuntary and how?

    The government has not forced me to kill anyone...except they use my tax money to kill.

    The government has not forced me to covet my neighbors property.

    I am not quite sure about the SS/Medicare and how it dishonors our parents. I do not agree with those programs. Interesting to note: The Amish do not pay or use SS/Medicare because they object and have shown that their communities care for themselves and their aging parents. They do pay other taxes though.

    Is there a law that forces me to spy on my neighbors?

    I hope you get a chance to look at the Romans 13 link. Just because some churches teach that passage incorrectly, it does not mean that the passage is wrong. It means that the church or pastor's teaching is wrong. If I take your words and twist them, you are not wrong. I am . So if people take God's Written Word and twist it, that does not make The Word wrong. The person twisting The Word is wrong.

    There are wolves in sheeps clothing:

    Jude 1:4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ...16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

    There are people who want their ears tickled:

    2 Timothy 3 For the time will comewhen they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables

    The way to know what is the truth is whether it is truly in accordance with scripture. Peter declares that scripture is sure:



  • It is Written

    Yes, but the Scriptures are the written word. The word Graphe is the Greek word used in the the New Testament to refer to the Written Word. http://beta.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/graphe.html

    The word New Testament is New Covenant. The writings of the New Covenant are found in the New Testament. The New Covenant includes Regeneration, or New Birth, whereby a New Nature as well as the Holy Spirit is given to the believer. (The Old Covenant was flawed because people did not have a new nature and the Word was external to them.) But Believers are told to renew their minds in Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. The mind is to be renewed with the Word of God found in Scripture. I say this because according to 2 Timothy, the Scriptures are inspired and for Doctrine, Reproof, and Instruction in Righteousness:

    2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
    All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

    I have hidden His Word in my heart so that I might not sin against Him and His Word is a lamp and light:
    Psalm 119 is all about the Written Word: http://beta.biblestudytools.com/kjv/psalms/119.html

    I disagree with the premise that the Scriptures are flawed. Jesus quoted the Scriptures. He used them when Satan tempted Him and he said to study them.

    John 5:39 KJV
    Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

    Luke 4:4 KJV
    And Jesus answered him [Satan], saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

    Jesus was refering to:

    Deut 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live

    If the written word is fallible, it seems to me that individuals set themselves up as judge over what is truth and what is not. It seems to me that individuals are fallible: The Scriptures are not.


  • I am listening to this one.

    I saw the grammar link. Should I be doing bookwork? :) I have been running back and forth this week playing taxi. A new era in our family :) Next week looks busy as well, but not as...I think...I hope?

  • Made me think of this!

    Thank you for your nice poem and my chance to remember this song:


  • I don't know what Go wants to discuss, but whatever it is can it

    not be done with civility? Maybe things are tossed into the ring to see what rises to the top? In the book I read every person is to be treated with love and goodness, even so-called "enemies."

    Matthew 5:44 KJV
    But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he makethhis sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    It seems to me that Followers of the Lord Jesus Christ have a hard time following His instructions. I know I do. But what if we were able to do so perfectly? What kind of world would we live in if just those who follow the Lord Jesus Christ could be perfect like our Father who is in Heaven? It seems to me that we are given opportunities to try. There is a scripture that says Love covers a multitude of sins. There is another scripture that says to overcome evil with good. I find that sometimes that is the exact opposite of what I want to do, or feel like doing. Especially when feelings (mine) are hurt. So why would I want to hurt the feelings of someone else? Is it not human nature? Is it not that nature that the Lord Jesus Christ gives us victory over?


  • Thanks for Posting!

    I've been wondering how this would "pan out"!

    Looking forward to Part 2 to see how it "stacks"!

  • Well, this should get you going...

    most likely a 13 year old boy got counted as a man...and his mom didn't even get a number.

    In my home, we would be counted as 1 as in the count of my husband. However in 2 years we would count as 2 when my son turns 13, then in another 2 we would count as 3 when my 2nd son reaches the age of counting.

    The way I am understanding the count is that Ezra was documenting tribal family units by tribal name. Doesn't bother me a bit, me being a woman and all. I am very secure in who I am and fine with the counting method. :)

    Anyways, I followed the wiki link you provided and found the very next sentence says "According to historian Shaye J. D. Cohen, in the Bible, the status of the offspring of mixed marriages was determined patrilineally." And the passage goes on to say that the Mishnah changed the way a Jew was determined thru the mother and gives various reasons. It might be interesting to note that Timothy (has a couple of bible books named after him) had a Jewish mother and if I remember right a Greek or Roman father. I don't remember which. But he was considered Jewish.

    Now as far as Solomon and his wives and comcubines...that is what is great about the Bible. Warts are not hidden. People are documented as what they are: imperfect. Not even the Kings of Israel got to meke themselves look perfect in the Holy Book...nor did the Patriarchs!

    Just because something is documented in the Bible does not mean it is condoned as a (or the only) method of doing things.


  • I have been looking forward to replying to this all day, but

    I have been on the go.

    Your comment:

    "If the Bible were infallible then there would only be one single form of Christianity."

    inspires me to toss a couple of ideas into the ring.

    It is the fallibility of man that has caused multiple “forms” of Christianity.

    There are many reasons for this, but quick to mind today are

    1) The failure of people to do what the Bible commands:
    2 Timothy 2:15 KJV
    Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    • People fail to study and to correctly interpret the Bible.

    2) Even worse though, is that there are some people who do this on purpose in order to “fleece” the “flock.”

    • Titus 1:11 KJV
    Whose mouths must be stopped , who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

    This was already happening in the 1st century. The whole book of Jude talks about it

    Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    And here Paul is talking about Satan’s ministers

    2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    Even Jesus talks about it:

    Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    Which brings us back to studying the Scriptures so that you know what they say so that you know when you hear a deceiver.


  • "So why does he post this, obviously to start trouble"

    you ask.

    Well, I don't know. But I do know that Jesus said this:

    Mark 2:17 KJV
    When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

    I don't want Go to trip over me. should Jesus call.

    So it seems to me that it is possible to kindly discuss the topic that has started this trouble worth calling people names over while tossing f-bombs at the same time.


  • Romans 12:21

    “Your precious time is just exactly what it is, precious.”

    As is yours, and you know, I am deeply indebted, though yours has been generously given.
    “Joe's Law, or any reasoned- out Political Economy Scenario, it seems to me, applies to every situation or it is not a formula based upon principle, or at least there must be a missing factor that alters the end result.
    Whenever destructive power contends with productive power, there will be a result, in time, whereby the result is either/or more destructive power, or more productive power, and here is where your expense, to me, is productive, as you ask about how my question offered to you relates to Joe's Law. “

    Yes, it seems to me that my family doctor verified that scenario today as we discussed the new Nation Wide Chain Pharmacy that has set foot in our little town and has not done so competently. We discussed the dehumanization of medicine. The Doc said that there is no reason to put up with it: As in push back. (I had already switched to the new start up small family pharmacy because of a mishap with the chain pharmacy.)

    “Suppose I could step in, at some moment in the future, and I act as a Non-Union Lawyer to help someone who cannot afford another injury by those Union people with the Union Black Robes, or Union Uniforms, or Union Licenses, in those Union Courts, and my question is put to the test.”

    Josf, the thing that I really wonder about, is whether this Non Union Lawyer set up is really a competitive venue or whether it is somehow a money maker for those promoting the idea. Is there a way to find out if this is really an opportunity to help people as well as being commensurably rewarded, or whether this is some kind of hoax.

    I definitely think you have the mind (as in intellect) to handle the task at hand. But is there a way to test the waters? Can you in person go and watch a Non Union Lawyer do his/her job? I say in person because anything can be made to look real on YouTube.
    "When more competent people are left alone, less competent people become scarce, fewer judges have employment, and here is where the finer points of good conduct become less than easy to understand.
    Is stepping in between a person who is no longer able to afford another ounce of blood flowing to the Legal Criminals, so as to help save that one from further injury, causing, as in me causing, the evil ones to have to ratchet up their evil deeds upon the remaining number of victims in the victim pool?"
    “I pluck, or someone plucks, one of the innocent victims off of the conveyor belt going straight into hell on earth, so to speak, and does that act constitute a willful injury upon the remaining innocent victims flowing into living hell on earth, because now, with that one innocent victim no longer satisfying the hunger for more, those Legal Criminals, in that Union of Devil Worshipers, or whatever Label is placed on their doors, their buildings, or their paperwork, they are now ratcheting up their WORK being done to those poor victims who are not taken off of the conveyor belt, and that is, in that way, my fault? I cause those Devil Worshiping Criminals to step up their game, and therefore their actions are accountable to me?”

    What do you think of Schindler as in Schindler’s List?

    Proverbs 24:11 If thou forbear to deliver them that are drawn unto death, and those that are ready to be slain; 12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

    If you cannot help them all, do not get out of bed? Or should you work help those who are set in your path?

    “To me the concept of finding better ways to effectively disconnect the victims from the criminals is measurably effective, in fact, as the victims are thereby able to use the power they have at the start of the day to make more power by the end of the day, and in fact, the effectiveness of the effort to reach the goal is measurable as the criminals no longer having as much power stolen, and then no longer having as much power to use in stealing more power from the targeted victims.”

    Pushing back, one at a time is better than staying in bed and letting that one pass in to victimhood?

    But didn’t Carl Miller talk about ending up in prison…and making a vacation out of it? I don’t think that is much of a vacation. Is Frank helping anyone in actual court cases, or is he just talking about it?

    Are there examples, references, real people who have really been helped by these Non Union Lawyers that you can speak to and verify the veracity of the whole idea?

    I think you will be good at whatever you choose to do, and helping other people in that choice multiplies goodness, it seems to me.

    It reminds me of this verse:

    Romans 12:21 KJV
    Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    But, please do not take the verses offered as a suggestion that the Non Union Lawyer idea is a competitive avenue to travel. I am just trying to say that when you help some, you have no way of knowing the end result for others, so by all means, help some. And if we were all to help some, would all then be helped?

    I just want you to be sure that this is a valid idea, and not some kind of hoax


  • Men = 29,818 / Congregation = 42,360

    Ezra 2:2 Which came with Zerubbabel: Jeshua, Nehemiah, Seraiah, Reelaiah, Mordecai, Bilshan, Mispar, Bigvai, Rehum, Baanah. The number of the men of the people of Israel:

    Ezra 2:64 The whole congregation together was forty and two thousand three hundred and threescore,

    The number of the congregation is larger because the number of the men is a subset of the congregation. i.e., I had 3 boys in my Sunday School Class last Sunday. The total people in my Sunday School Class last Sunday was 8 which included 3 girls and 2 women as well as the 3 boys.

    Thank you for the Study :)

  • I'ma clinging to that 100% infallible notion bout the Bible!

    It is my guide. What good is a guide that cannot be trusted? A poor one at the best, and a deceitful one at the least.

    I have no reason not to believe that the Bible is the Written Word of God.

    2 Peter 1:21 KJV
    For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

    Tell me about these numbers that do not add up. They sound very interesting!


  • I wish you wouldn't talk like that about one of my Friends.

    It makes me feel bad. And it makes me wonder why you would do that. Are you trying to make him feel bad? Why?

  • Ahhh, but He did create Light before He created the Sun, Moon

    and Stars! Is that not exciting!

    Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    But you know what I think is even more exciting? There will be a time in the future when we will have light once again...without the sun!

    Revelation 21:23 KJV
    And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Revelation 22:5 KJV
    And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
    The Lamb, The Lord Jesus Christ IS the Light!
    Anyways, something else I think about as an adult is that since powers that be want to be The Power, they must remove The Lord God as the Ultimate Power so that they can have power. How better to do that then discredit Him as Creator?

    What good is a God who cannot creat an earth in 6 24 hour days? Cannot God do the impossible? So why doesn't he heal the amputees? Maybe he does... http://www.joniandfriends.org/ ...in ways greater than we understand.

    And He doesn't pass the buck:

    Exodus 4:11 KJV
    And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?


  • Why Thank you DW :)

    Another thing I love about the DP is the chance to be a little creative. Sometimes it just flows and makes me smile. I hope I make Rick Stone smile too.

  • "If that productive power is

    "If that productive power is an exclusive power that only God can have, then, when that is known by me as a fact, what should I then do, stay in bed until the end of my time on Earth?"

    No, but know that The Horse is prepared unto battle but safety is from the Lord. That verse is found in Proverbs. If you want to know where, I'll look up the reference for you.

    So no, don't stay in bed. Prepare, but stand in the Lord. Remember that verser about 2 walking together unless they be agreed? Well there is also a verse, maybe right after that one that says something about a 3 strand cord not being easily broken.

    Here is a verse, I looked this one up:

    Ephesians 6:10 KJV
    Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

    Not only is there competence, but there is confidence!

    "When more competent people are left alone, less competent people become scarce, fewer judges have employment, and here is where the finer points of good conduct become less than easy to understand.

    Is stepping in between a person who is no longer able to afford another ounce of blood flowing to the Legal Criminals, so as to help save that one from further injury, causing, as in me causing, the evil ones to have to ratchet up their evil deeds upon the remaining number of victims in the victim pool?"

    I wonder how that scenario works with Joe's Law?

    Also, wondering if your last statement:

    "the evil ones to have to ratchet up their evil deeds upon the remaining number of victims in the victim pool?"

    The focus may be turned upon you to remove you from the equation?